Divorce at Altitude: A Podcast on Colorado Family Law

Parental Alienation with Jill Coil, Esq. | Episode 87

February 24, 2022 Ryan Kalamaya & Amy Goscha Season 1 Episode 87
Divorce at Altitude: A Podcast on Colorado Family Law
Parental Alienation with Jill Coil, Esq. | Episode 87
Show Notes Transcript

Although the term parental alienation is thrown around a lot in various custody cases, there are actually two different types of alienation, unintentional and intentional parental alienation.

Family law attorney Jill Coil discusses the difference between unintentional and intentional parental alienation and different strategies and advice parents can use to deal with the alienating parent. 

About Jill Coil

Jill Coil founded Coillaw in December of 2014 with the goal of empathizing, protecting, and advocating for families through legal representation.  She has received many awards in Utah for her on-going work in family law cases and her avocation for her clients.  Jill also has a tech start up called Simpleending.com bringing affordable quality online divorce technology to the public without the need to hire an attorney.  She also recently launched a female led Personal Injury firm, Moxie Law Group. She is actively engaged in her community through charitable work through The Coil foundation which she started with her husband. She is a mother of four amazing children and when possible loves to travel the world.

What is Divorce at Altitude?

Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha provide tips and recommendations on issues related to divorce, separation, and co-parenting in Colorado. Ryan and Amy are the founding partners of an innovative and ambitious law firm, Kalamaya | Goscha, that pushes the boundaries to discover new frontiers in family law, personal injuries, and criminal defense in Colorado.

If you have additional questions or would like to speak to one of our attorneys, give us a call at 970-429-5784 or email us at info@kalamaya.law.

************************************************************************

DISCLAIMER: THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS ON THIS PODCAST IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL ADVICE. CONTACT AN ATTORNEY IN YOUR STATE OR AREA TO OBTAIN LEGAL ADVICE ON ANY OF THESE ISSUES.

Ryan Kalamaya (4s):
I'm Ryan Kalamaya

Amy Goscha (6s):
And Amy, Goscha

Ryan Kalamaya (8s):
Welcome to Divorce at Altitude, a podcast on Colorado family law.

Amy Goscha (13s):
The force is not easy. It really sucks. Trust me. I know besides being an experienced divorce attorney, I'm also a divorce.

Ryan Kalamaya (21s):
Whether you are someone considering divorce or a fellow family law attorney listening for weekly tips and insight into topics related to divorce, parenting and separation in Colorado. Welcome back to another episode of Divorce at Altitude. This is Ryan Kalamaya. We're going to be talking about Parental Alienation. This is an issue that comes up frequently. Whenever custody or parenting time is disputed and we're joined by a guest. She is a Utah and Texas licensed attorney, Joe coil. She has created and grown one of the largest family law firms in the state of Utah. She's also a motivational speaker and is on a mission to ensure that people feel empowered in their own lives to understand their self-worth and then be able to empower others.

Ryan Kalamaya (1m 9s):
She's written a book, no one dies from divorce, how to survive and thrive when your marriage ends. We'll have a link to her book in the show notes, but before I go on Jill, welcome to the show. Thanks.

Jill Coil (1m 22s):
And I'm really happy to be here. And it's been really great getting to know you a little bit and what you're doing over there and Aspen, Colorado.

Ryan Kalamaya (1m 29s):
Yeah. So you're in salt lake and we talked before we started recording. Cause you also host a, your own podcast and we'll get into that. But I've spent a decent amount of time in salt lake and as listeners of, for Divorce at Altitude know, I'm a avid skier. So I've spent a fair amount of time in your neck of the woods scan at snowbird. And I hope you're able to get out on the slopes this year when we're recording in the winter of 2022.

Jill Coil (1m 54s):
Yes, we have season passes this year, but man, our snow has been weird. We had like amazing snow in the beginning of the winter and now it's kind of died down. So it's just been, and then with COVID, you know, everything's just messed up right now.

Ryan Kalamaya (2m 8s):
Well, so for people that don't understand or they hear the term Parental Alienation to start off with a definition and what are we talking about? So when I say Parental Alienation, what does that mean to you? Jail?

Jill Coil (2m 23s):
It's a word and a term that's actually used a lot. Now it's thrown out in a lot of divorces like, oh my spouse is being an alienator, but it's actually a defined term that actually has specific characteristics that would then characterize somebody as an actual parental alienator. And I guess the best definition I can suggest for it is that it's when a parent actively either intentionally or unintentionally does things to alienate or gatekeeper a child from being freely involved in loving and or having a relationship with the other parent. And when I say it can be intentional, it can literally be actions that parent is purposely doing to throw out the ability for that child to have a relationship with the other parent.

Jill Coil (3m 11s):
But it also can be unintentional with very, very unconscious things that we are doing as parents to alienate the child from again, having a healthy or normal relationship with the other parent. And we can go into more of those topics in a little bit later in the show, if you'd like,

Ryan Kalamaya (3m 28s):
Yeah. So for intentional alienation, can you give our listeners some examples or ideas of what would be an intentional active alienation, right?

Jill Coil (3m 38s):
Intentional is when you are specifically saying, or doing things to the children too, with the knowing that it would make the children dislike or have issues with the other parents. So, you know, your belief is that he, you know, domestically commit or committed domestic violence against you. So you continually tell the children, your father is a wife beater, or your dad is a, a deadbeat or, you know, your mom, you know, continually did this to me. And therefore she is this it's specifically telling the children things that you believe of the other parent to somehow ruin or hurt their relationship with the child. It's also actions making the child feel bad that they want to go visit the other parent or making it very, very hard for the child to go see the other parent.

Jill Coil (4m 27s):
It can be physical actions of denying parent time. And just saying, you don't get to have that parent time with the other parents. So there are specific things that you're doing with the knowledge that I know that this is making my child think differently or poorly about their other

Ryan Kalamaya (4m 43s):
And the other side of the coin would be unintentional. So to the extent that they're different, obviously the intent is different, but are there things that come up unintentionally that are examples of alienating behavior that you could kind of put into that unintentional bucket?

Jill Coil (5m 2s):
One of the things that comes up a lot is like right before the child's supposed to go to their parent time with the other parent, that parent sitting there hugging that child saying, oh, I love you so much. I'm going to miss you so much. I can't believe all the things you're going to miss doing with me because you're going to be with that other parent that parent possibly could have good intentions of just wanting that child to know. I love you, I'm there for you, but what they really are actually alienating that child from feeling guilty about being able to enjoy their time with the other parent, because they're missing out on whatever they're supposed to be doing with that parent, you know, making them like, feel bad, like, oh, you're going to miss, you know, we're going to a movie tomorrow and you're going to miss that or telling them, well, you better get your homework done with your dad because I know he doesn't do homework with you, you know, or don't come home with homework because you know, I'm not going to help you do it because it's your dad's responsibility or your mom's responsibility.

Jill Coil (5m 52s):
I don't mean to be gender because I want this to be very, very specific. There has actually not been a link to find who is more of an alienator or not, whether you're male or female, it can happen in either instances. However, there are links to the way that a male or a female do actually Ana.

Ryan Kalamaya (6m 11s):
Yeah. And what you said is certainly my observation earlier is that it's a loaded term. It is certainly thrown out there a lot. I know judges some, it is a real big turnoff for them. Some evaluators, they reject the concept of alienation. So it's a really tricky thing. So the other tricky thing, I think when you talk about alienation is that you have divorce as a change, right? You wrote, you know, no one dies from divorce and that's true, but it's this process of rebirth and it's a process of transition. So you have these traditional roles in the marriage and it may not be a traditional marriage, but you have these roles usually in the marriage.

Ryan Kalamaya (6m 55s):
And then when you go through divorce, you have a change of those roles. And so I think it's really difficult when you're talking about alienation to address that change. How much do you tell kids about what's going on and what do you kind of really hide from them? Because if you tell them too much, you can be an allegedly, a gatekeeper. And so I guess, how do you walk clients through Jill or deal with that change? Whether it be both, you know, the alienator or the victim of alienation. So can you walk us through some scenarios of things that you go through with your clients?

Jill Coil (7m 34s):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this happens a lot. Obviously people don't know how to navigate a divorce. They've never either done it before or if they have it's their own unique situation. So, you know, a lot of them are just trying to do the best they can. And a lot of times they're felling and sucking at it. And you know, is it their fault? Not necessarily, but they need to be willing to listen to this advice. And what I tell all my clients is is that it's kids will be okay through divorce. All the studies show that kids are going to, they're very, very resilient that they will be okay if they know a few things. And the first thing they have to know is that both parents love them and they are going to be given the opportunity to love both parents as well. So one of the biggest things you can do from a divorce is you need to set aside your, I guess, put it into two parts.

Jill Coil (8m 20s):
First of all, your anger and hatred toward the person you're divorcing that's normal. Those are going to be feelings that are going to be felt, but you need to deal with that so that you can then deal with, how am I going to deal with the fact that this person is still the parent of my children and they still deserve her a relationship with my children. I talk a lot about how, if you and your spouse have nothing in common, you're absolutely hate each other. You're so angry at each other, but you have kids in common. I tell them to strip away all the anger, strip away all of the beliefs that they have of the other person and get down to one basic thing. And if you answer this question and then we can build upon it, and the question is, is, do you want your kids to succeed and hands down, however angry.

Jill Coil (9m 3s):
They are. However, the beliefs that are story that they've made up in their head about what's happened and the reasons behind the divorce, they all get down to say, I want my kids to succeed. And I look at them, I say good, because you know what? Your spouse, through all of this story, through all, whatever their belief is believes, the exact same thing you guys want. What's best for your kids at the end of the day. And you might have different stories of what is best for your kids, but at the end of the day, this statistics show that what's best for your kids is having continuous frequent contact with both parents. So if you can kind of just get down to this basic of, okay, I want what's best for my kids. He wants, she wants what's best for my kids. We can build a good about that.

Jill Coil (9m 44s):
And I can deal with, you know, my emotional state of whatever I believe with that person. And I can then help my kids be okay through this divorce, because I know at the other side, you know, my spouse wants that same thing. Yeah.

Ryan Kalamaya (9m 57s):
And for people that are longtime listeners, they will recognize we've got the Eric and Melanie Wolfe, the hypothetical divorce. So Jill, if Eric Wolf is going through a divorce with his wife, Melanie, and he comes to your office after a day of skiing and says, listen, I just blow off some steam. I'm going to go through a divorce and I'd like to hire you. And then he relays these various things that Melanie does. So Melanie, every time they've been separated for a while, Melanie, every time tells the kids really winds them up before coming over to his house, classic kind of alienating behavior. What are the things or the remedies as a lawyer, can you help with Eric in addressing alienating behavior by Melanie

Jill Coil (10m 44s):
Christian? First of all, there are some attorneys that are going to just get tuned off. If you use the words narcissist, or if you use the words borderline, or if you use alienation, there are some attorneys that are just going to say, Hey, Hey, Hey, it doesn't matter. The courts don't care. We just don't need to deal with it. But the problem is is you can't be that black and white. There is actually cases where alienation is happening. Gatekeeping is happening at borderline personalities are involved, whether it's a diagnosis or just a working theory. So my first thing is, is you got to find an attorney that actually understands what's going on in the situation, because you have to be able to create within your parenting plan, within your divorce decree parameters, to protect yourself.

Jill Coil (11m 27s):
When you have a parent like this, you have to have strict rules in your divorce decree that basically lay out what happens so that you can be protected if these conditions or these alienating factors happen again. And the way that you do it is you have to have rules and you got to follow the rules. And if you have an attorney that understands that and can then help you negotiate that into your divorce, then afterwards, there's going to be protections for you. If your spouse just chooses not to do it or continually chooses to do these behaviors that are going to hurt your kids. Well then guess what? You have a decree. That's going to stand up in court. That you're going to be able to take all this evidence back into court and hopefully get some relief to help you with this situation.

Jill Coil (12m 10s):
And it's really important to do that now in your divorce, then to be the one to, you know, say, oh, I don't want to fight. I don't want to fight right now, but I'm going to then, you know, come back later. If there's a problem, I promise you, you don't want to negotiate your divorce after the fact, because it's going to make it a thousand times harder.

Ryan Kalamaya (12m 30s):
I agree, Jill. And one of the hardest things is that there is no perfect parenting plan. So there's no parenting plan that is going to my newly detail. Don't wind up the kids before a parenting exchange, but you can have other things. So for example, not telling the children about particular activities or events or not speaking to third parties negatively. So there are details that you can have in your parenting plan. But I think you would agree that there are these variations of alienating behavior. And oftentimes Melanie, if she is the alienating, the gatekeeping parent, then she just will find any kind of way around.

Ryan Kalamaya (13m 13s):
If she's really committed, it's a variation, right? Where there's different grades of alienating behavior. And if it gets so bad that the kids don't want to go to Eric for his parenting time, what can Eric do?

Jill Coil (13m 28s):
So the first thing is is that your kids will not believe alienating behaviors. If they get quality time with you to show that those things that the spouse has said about you are not true. So the first thing, if you have a spouse that is doing alienating behaviors, or is a gatekeeper of sorts, you need to fight for as much time as possible with your kids so that they can have a relationship with you, separate from whatever mom is or dad is telling them about the other parent. And then the second thing is, is, so the question earlier, about how much do you tell your kids? Or what do you tell your kids? You have to tell your kids something they're not dumb. They need to know what's going on.

Jill Coil (14m 10s):
They want to know that they're loved. They want to know that they're going to be supported. They want to know that their lives aren't going to be ultimately disrupted by this divorce. So one of the things you can do is if you have another parent that's very, very alienating or gatekeeping is you do whatever you can to support your kids and having consistency in their relationship with you. So don't move super far away, allow them to be close to their friends, to stay in the same schools, to stay in the activities, be supportive of that. Even if you know, you're frustrated because spouse signed them up for basketball without asking you permission or whatnot, if you know basketball is important to your child, be supportive.

Jill Coil (14m 51s):
It. So always pushing back that you should be the one to have to give her permission. And that you're frustrated that this alienating parent keeps making things. Don't push it to the other pendulum where you say, well, I'm moving away. I want my kids to have their own life with me and their own life with mom. Cause that's just going to further their belief that there is no way that you guys can coexist and kids don't want two separate lives. They want one life. What the kids can do is they can get very comfortable living into homes, but they don't want to have to, you know, create two sets of complete relationships that are shielded from the other home. Because you know, that parent is just trying to ignore or forget that this other parent ever existed.

Jill Coil (15m 33s):
So that's one thing you can do is, is you gotta support your kids in their life. And by doing that, even if, if the alienating parent is the one that has the majority of, you know, or is the custodial parents, so the kids are going there, make sure you live close, make sure you allow those kids to continue in the activities that they love and be super supportive of them in it, by showing up, going to them and making sure that your kids feel like you're doing what you can to support their life and then showing up. Because again, if the other parent is being very alienating or gatekeeping, you showing up consistently is going to show those kids that they matter and that whatever you know that alienating parent is saying is not true.

Jill Coil (16m 16s):
The second part to your question, and I know this is a long-winded answer is that don't give up time. So a lot of times, especially with teenagers, a parent, you know, gets a kid that just says, I don't want to see you anymore. I don't want to spend time with you. And our first reaction is, as parents is okay, if I step back, then they, it will help me draw closer to them. That's not what studies are showing is the best for your children. What you need to do is you need to take your time and make sure you're spending quality time with your kid. You also then need to get you in that child in therapy so that you can be discussing and talking about what is causing that child to want to pull away from you. And you want to do it in an open, safe environment so that the kid can speak, feel like they have a safe way of telling you why they feel this way.

Jill Coil (17m 3s):
And you can try to rectify it in whatever way is necessary.

Ryan Kalamaya (17m 8s):
This episode is brought to you by our law firm. Kalamaya Gosha Amy and I describe our law firm as an innovative and ambitious trial team that pushes the boundaries to discover new frontiers and family law, personal injuries in criminal defense in Colorado. We currently have offices in Aspen, Glenwood Springs, Edwards, Denver, and Boulder. If you want to find out more, visit our website, Kalamaya dot law. Now back to the show, I agree, Jill, and it's really, these are tricky situations because Eric, he could have committed domestic violence or he could have had an affair.

Ryan Kalamaya (17m 47s):
Something where he really was the wrong and Melanie could be using that against him. And there could be legitimate reasons why a child is angry at Eric and saying, I don't want to spend time with you, but doing that in a therapeutic manner is that is certainly, certainly is on the table. And ultimately I think, you know, I've seen it where if the children will refuse to spend time with Eric, then you know, the nuclear option is starting to be discussed. And when I say nuclear option, the last resort or the last choice is the court does have authority to say the kids are going to spend all of their time with Eric.

Ryan Kalamaya (18m 28s):
And because everyone needs to know Melanie, the children that the children. And oftentimes one of the problems from my observation is the children are given. They're kind of put up on a pedestal by the one of the parents or both of the parents and they're allowed to choose. And when you have that, when they are given the authority to choose by the parents, then it results in the kind of them posturing and really trying to advocate. And so sometimes courts will say, all right, well, it's so bad that I'm going to place you in the care of Eric a hundred percent of the time. And you also, you have these residential facilities or away camps. I think there was an Atlantic, the Atlantic newspaper or magazine had an article about these residential, where you go to Tennessee or Minnesota for, you know, several weeks on end.

Ryan Kalamaya (19m 12s):
And that's, you know, I mean, they're expensive, but that's when things are so bad that children aren't even talking to Eric, but there really are some extreme consequences in these scenarios, right?

Jill Coil (19m 24s):
And it's happening, especially more in Utah where they call them timeouts where they will absolutely switch custody. And that alienating parent doesn't get any time with that child for 30 days, 60 days, because it usually fixes the problem. All of a sudden the kid, you know, oh, I do love my dad and it gets him away from that. It also sends a strong message that we're not going to be okay with this anymore. One of the things also is a lot of times, you know, it's so emotional for the non alienating parent. And so a lot of times they just, you know, think, oh, maybe I'll just give up. And so when they give up, they then give up everything. And this is my thing. Is, is that okay? Maybe you fought hard.

Jill Coil (20m 5s):
Maybe you've decided to just let that child be with the other parent for a while, but don't give up on having a relationship with them. And what that means is still go to their basketball games, still show up for, you know, whatever you can find out about send them birthday presents, send them Christmas gifts. I mean, I have so many parents that were like, well, if my child doesn't want to come to my home, then they're not going to get their Christmas present. And I'm like, listen, that sends the message to this kid that you don't care about them, that you don't love them. And that's going to be more damaging than if you just show up in small ways, because what's going to happen is these kids are going to get older. They're going to get wiser. They're going to see these behaviors that the alienating parent did.

Jill Coil (20m 46s):
And they're going to gravitate back to that, you know, non-custodial parent or that non alienating parent, and they're going to do it much easier when they have all this evidence to show that, you know, this parent showed up, even when I was being the dumb one and I was pushing them away and they need that. So, you know, I know it's hard and I know that parents that are been in, you know, have these alienation cases, just they're exasperated and they're sad. But at the end of the day, it doesn't give you right to just wash your hands and say, fine. If you don't want an Alicia with me, then I have no relationship with you. I kind of look at it as, listen. You're the adult. They're going to act like children. They're acting like children. You need to be the adult. So still show up in the way that you can, because in the long run, it's going to mean more to your child than you will ever know.

Jill Coil (21m 31s):
What's

Ryan Kalamaya (21m 32s):
And talk about Melanie. So if Melanie and you said, and I agree with you a hundred percent gel in the gender types, you know, it crosses borders and it crosses, you know, stereotypes. So if Melanie comes into your office and she says, Eric says that I am alienating and I'm a gatekeeper. I don't even know what that means. I just want the children to spend time with him. And she'll Melanie is wrongfully accused of being a gatekeeper. What are the things that she can do? Or they are available? Tools, methods, ways of communicating. What are the things that she can do if she's being wrongfully accused of being a geek

Jill Coil (22m 12s):
Right earlier in the podcast, you talked about how, when you get divorce roles change, right? A lot of times we do our gender roles in a marriage where, you know, the mom is doing homework and, you know, taking kids to doctors and not necessarily because it's a gender role, but because we're moms, that's just kind of what we do. And then the dad, you know, they're going to work their events in their career. And, and so we've got these roles. And so when we get divorced, a lot of times we get stuck in thinking, well, he never did this. Therefore he can't do this. Or she now has to go work. So this is going to change. And we get stuck in thinking that we're so narrow-minded that people's roles can't change. And no, when divorce happens, guess what Divorce is going to change the rules.

Jill Coil (22m 55s):
And this is what I tell my dad. If you want to be an equal parent, you better show up as an equal parent. So don't expect me to come to court and fight for you to get equal time. If you're not showing up to do the work of equal time, which means you get to now do the homework you get to now cook the dinner. You get to make sure that these kids are being taken care of in a role that you maybe didn't do during the marriage. And then with moms, I say, listen, I know it's hard. You have been doing this primarily, but he wants a relationship with the kids. You're okay with that. So guess what? This is the time to give up that role. You don't have to do it all. Now. He gets to step up and he gets to do that homework and you get to be okay with that.

Jill Coil (23m 35s):
So we do a lot of talking and coaching about how it's okay to give up these roles. And just because we're giving up partially these roles doesn't make me a worse mom. Doesn't make him a better dad. What it's doing is it's giving you the chance that when he has the kids on his time, it's his time. And you get to kind of sit back and not worry about that because he gets to step up in that role and you get to change your role and you get to be passionate about what you want to do in your career. So in Melanie's case, she now gets to step up and say, what do I want to be when I grow up? What does my role look like? Now after the divorce, what do I want to do? That's going to benefit me. I get to start dreaming again.

Jill Coil (24m 15s):
And when the kids are with him, yay, I get to think differently. I get to do things for me, something that I haven't done very often, you know, during the marriage, I always joke because if my husband ever leaves me, he's getting custody of the kids. Cause I get to then do things that I, you know, dream about doing that I can't do as a married mom of four, you know, running multiple businesses and doing what I'm doing. So I make that joke because it really is one of those just role. It's a mindset. And we just got to get into this place of mindset. And then we talk about, Hey, are you doing some of these alienating roles that you need to change? And a lot of times they're like, oh, I didn't even think about that. I didn't realize I was doing that. And it's just telling somebody, Hey, we can do that better.

Jill Coil (24m 57s):
And them changing their perspective. The last thing I would say is, you know, you have to go through the grief cycle of divorce. So getting out of the anger stage faster is the best way we can do that. And that means we need to get mentally charged and mentally prepared. So getting into therapy, getting into something, to help you be able to deal with that anger, to move that aside. So you can start thinking rationally is really going to help you step up to be a better co-parent

Ryan Kalamaya (25m 21s):
Great advice, Jill. And I think for both Eric and Melanie, when you're dealing with these situations, think divorce coach or a parenting coach, you know, there are specialists out there at least here in Colorado, you have to do a parenting through divorce class, but taking that next step, I've had clients that have consulted with people about, you know, if Eric, he gets triggered by Melanie signing the children up for a sport at basketball and he doesn't know about it and he finds out about it, it could trigger him. How does he address that? Or in Melanie's circumstance? How does she communicate with Eric? If he now all of a sudden wants to take his having problems with taking the kids to a doctor's appointment because he's never done it.

Ryan Kalamaya (26m 5s):
He doesn't even know who the doctor is showing up at parent teacher conferences. And that just really irritates her because she's understandably Melanie is saying, when did this happen? Like if you had done this, Eric, we wouldn't be going through a divorce. So when did you become super dad? And then there's always this tension of, is this parent doing it for child support or what's going on here, but really addressing that with a professional to help you Wade through what's kind of fact from fiction or what's really going on. And how do you appropriately address that? But then also you have these evaluations, you know, in Colorado we have a CFI and a pre. And really, if you're dealing with alienation, you're dealing with some pretty high level concepts and measurement where, you know, a measurement for listeners that don't know Jill, what, when I refer to a mint, what are we talking about

Jill Coil (26m 55s):
For what I was thinking in Utah is that when we're looking at custody, it is primary caretaker of the children and there's not a presumption of custody. And so it is something that you have to come to court and you can say, well, if I 50 50, this is why, and this is in the best interest of the children. So my thought, while you were going through that statement is, is that just like I said, if you're a dad and you've never been an equal parent, but you're showing up to court to say, I want to be an equal parent. You better have a good reason why and the court, a lot of times is going to look at, you know, actions speak louder to the words. If you've never gone to parent teacher conferences, if you've never taken him to a doctor, if you don't know who their teachers are, then the court's going to have a problem with you coming in and saying, oh, but I want 50 50.

Jill Coil (27m 40s):
And it is going to come down to, are you, you know, wanting to lower child support or whatnot, you know, they're going to look at the reasons behind it. I think that's why a lot of people in Utah fight so hard about a 50 50 presumption, which a lot of states have gone to where they start at 50 50. And then they changed that because they recognize this, especially in such a, in Utah, especially like we're still where one party works out of the home and one person stays at home. So because of that, there are roles that are just completely different where a 50 50 might not make sense. So you have to understand that. And again, if you want to be a 50, 50 parent, what are you doing to change that? I think a lot of times too, with the immense, like we get caught up in our story or belief that because I believed he was a bad husband, he's therefore going to be a bad dad, but usually it's not that way.

Jill Coil (28m 27s):
Like he can be a really bad crappy husband, but can be a really, really good dad. And if that's the case, then we need to separate those. The divorce gets rid of the bad husband. Great. That's exactly what we wanted, but he's still the father of your kids and he's a good dad, so great. Let's create something within your divorce, your divorce decree, that's going to support that, give you exactly what you need to be protected in a way from whatever he was, but give your kids the chance to have, you know, two really good loving,

Ryan Kalamaya (28m 54s):
Right. Well, Jill, I appreciate the insights. It's something that we could undoubtedly go on and on about, because there's so many different wrinkles and nuances to alienation, but I appreciate the insight and giving us an overview of what this all entails. So, but for those that don't know anything about you, like I said, we'll have links to the show notes, but can you tell us a little bit about your book and your, and your podcast?

Jill Coil (29m 20s):
So yeah, my book is all over Amazon, so you can go get it there. It's also in Utah, it's on almost every local bookstore. So I'm always support local if you can. But I just recognize that when people are going through a divorce, they it's one of the hardest trials of their life. And so I really wanted to make sure that I wrote down some of my thoughts and that I give to every client that's going through this, that you are going to be okay. And if you can use this as a blank slate to, you know, really launch yourself to become a better version of yourself, then divorce becomes a movement rather than a trial. It becomes something that we can use to actually become better people, fathers, mothers, human. So you can find it on Amazon.

Jill Coil (30m 2s):
You can find me on Jill coil, everything, Jill coil, Jill coil.com, Jill coil, Instagram. You can also then find my, you know, my law website, coil law.com, which has a million blog, tons of advice on divorce and how to get through this. And yeah, that's where you can find me.

Ryan Kalamaya (30m 19s):
Cool. Well, Jill, thank you. If I end up at snowbird, I will drop you a line or anywhere on a little Cottonwood canyon, but I appreciate the time and thanks. And hopefully listeners have gained some insight into Parental Alienation and what it is and what they can do about it, but until next time, thanks for joining us on Divorce at Altitude, everyone. This is Ryan again. Thank you for joining us on Divorce at Altitude. If you found our tips, insight or discussion, helpful, please tell a friend about this podcast for show notes, additional resources or links mentioned on today's episode. Visit divorce@altitude.com.

Ryan Kalamaya (31m 0s):
Follow us on apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen in. Many of our episodes are also posted on YouTube. You can also find Amy and me at Kalamaya dot law or 9 7 8 3 1 5 2 3 6 5 that's K a L a M a Y a.law.