Earlier this week, Tampa Bay Buccaneers quarterback Tom Brady and super model Gisele Bündchen announced that they have decided to file for divorce. Divorces involving professional athletes or celebrities bring a unique set of issues due to contracts, marital agreements, media attention and more.
Ryan Kalamaya and top NYC family law attorney Evan Schein discuss challenges that come with representing professional athletes, entertainers and their demanding schedules, and suggestions to help clients maintain privacy through the divorce process.
In This Episode:
About Evan Schein
Evan Schein is a partner with Berkman Bottger Newman & Schein LLP and leads the firm’s litigation practice. Prior to becoming an attorney, Evan was a sports agent. He focuses his practice on representing professional athletes in family law matters to bring his two passions of sports and family law together. He has also been recognized in the New York Metro Super Lawyers Edition from 2013 to 2019, and is also the host of Schein On: The Podcast.
What is Divorce at Altitude?
Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha provide tips and recommendations on issues related to divorce, separation, and co-parenting in Colorado. Ryan and Amy are the founding partners of an innovat
What is Divorce at Altitude?
Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha provide tips and recommendations on issues related to divorce, separation, and co-parenting in Colorado. Ryan and Amy are the founding partners of an innovative and ambitious law firm, Kalamaya | Goscha, that pushes the boundaries to discover new frontiers in family law, personal injuries, and criminal defense in Colorado.
To subscribe to Divorce at Altitude, click here and select your favorite podcast player. To subscribe to Kalamaya | Goscha's YouTube channel where many of the episodes will be posted as videos, click here. If you have additional questions or would like to speak to one of our attorneys, give us a call at 970-429-5784 or email us at email@example.com.
DISCLAIMER: THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS ON THIS PODCAST IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL ADVICE. CONTACT AN ATTORNEY IN YOUR STATE OR AREA TO OBTAIN LEGAL ADVICE ON ANY OF THESE ISSUES.
Ryan Kalamaya (3s):
Hey everyone. I'm Ryan Kalamaya.
Amy Goscha (6s):
And I'm Amy Goscha.
Ryan Kalamaya (8s):
Welcome to the Divorce at Altitude A Podcast on Colorado. Family Law.
Amy Goscha (13s):
Divorce is not easy. It really sucks. Trust me I. Know. Besides being an experienced divorce attorney, I'm also a Divorce client.
Ryan Kalamaya (20s):
Whether, you are someone considering divorce or a fellow family law attorney. Listen in for weekly tips and insight into topics related to Divorce Co Parenting and Separation in Colorado Welcome. Back to another episode of Divorce at Altitude. This week we are going to air a previous episode on Professional, Athletes, entertainers and Divorce. It's with a New York City Divorce lawyer, Evan Schein, who specializes in Divorces involving Professional Athletes. We're doing so because the news as of this recording has come out about Tom, Brady and Gisele going through a Divorce.
Ryan Kalamaya (1m 6s):
It crosses the boundaries of ENTERTAINMENT as Gisele is a model to the extent that one could characterize that as ENTERTAINMENT, as well as obviously Tom Brady a professional athlete. Here in the episode we actually discussed Tom Brady, but it's more in the context of his previous relationship and co-parenting And. We don't want to make light or to focus in particular on Tom, Brady and Giselle. Hopefully they are in a good place, but they are public figures. And, we figured that many of our audience would find it interesting to hear some of the issues that may or may not be involved.
Ryan Kalamaya (1m 46s):
So without further ado, we're going to listen in on Eric and my conversation on Professional, Athletes entertainers and Divorce. I am joined by a New York City Divorce lawyer, Evan Schein, who is also the host of his own podcast, Schein on, We'll get into that, but Evan How are you doing today,
Evan Schein (2m 7s):
Ryan, it's great to be with you. Thank you for having me on. I am doing really
Ryan Kalamaya (2m 10s):
Well. For those, for our listeners who aren't familiar with New York City, Divorce Lawyers, can you give us a little background how'd you get into doing work in in New York City?
Evan Schein (2m 19s):
Ryan, it's a great question. Again, thank you for having me on. It's great to be with you and great to be with all your Listeners. As you mentioned, I'm a Divorce attorney. I'm the head of litigation and a partner at my firm, Berkman Bacher. Newman and Schein in New York City. I specialize in Divorce and matrimonial law. My path to being a Divorce attorney, it's somewhat unique and it's a path I I absolutely love to talk about. For reasons I know we're gonna get into. I started my career actually during law school. I was an NFL sports agent and on the weekends I would travel around the country, meet with prospective NFL players and their families. And I did that for about three, four years. And I, absolutely loved it. It was a tremendous experience. I made wonderful connections in the industry, in the business, and it really afforded me an opportunity to learn about the sports side of business and contracts and players and their families.
Evan Schein (3m 11s):
And ultimately I wanted to transition into practicing law and a seamless and a natural transition for me was doing what I do now and what I've been doing, you know, for the past 13 years, which is being a Divorce attorney in New York City. Something I absolutely love and I've been fortunate to be able to blend my two passions and what I learned being an NFL sports agent to the practice of matrimonial and family law. Well,
Ryan Kalamaya (3m 35s):
Let's talk about some of those deals and how they could impact an athlete or an entertainer doing through a Divorce. And, and so let's go to the financials first. So you know Hopkins, you know, 75 million deal. What are the unique aspects of that kind of contract? I mean his big money, what are the things that if he were to go through a Divorce or any sort of professional athlete, and let's first start with the NFL, like what are the things that are unique about what you're dealing with in a Divorce with a professional athlete like an NFL player?
Evan Schein (4m 5s):
Ryan, it's such a great question and I'm glad you mentioned the NFL because the NFL is like no other sport. It's often joked that the NFL stands for not for long and there's good reason because the physical toll that it takes on an NFL player's body. Look what makes representing Athletes so unique, especially in the NFL, given the physical nature of the sport, Athletes earn a lot of money, millions of dollars, often hundreds of millions of dollars in their twenties. And I'm gonna say that again because it it's worth it, which is Athletes peak athletically and financially at a very young age, they often retire in their late twenties, early thirties. Look, unless you're Tom Brady or LeBron James and you know you're gonna play until you're 40 most Athletes peak in their twenties athletically and financially.
Evan Schein (4m 49s):
And so when you're representing an athlete going through a Divorce, a separation and the issues come up in terms of child support, in terms of lifestyle, in terms of equitable distribution in New York and I know Colorado has a similar statute. How you're going to divide assets in terms of accounts and provide for a family going forward. Athletes and their families get comfortable and used to living a very expensive, a very nice lifestyle at a certain point in time. But the question in the challenge is what happens when an athlete retires? Some Athletes, you see going to coaching some Athletes now make the transition to broadcasting where you can earn a lot of money.
Evan Schein (5m 29s):
But that's few and far between. Most Athletes retire and then the question is what did an athlete save during their peak earning days? What money's available going forward? If an athlete retires and they're 33 and there's not a lot of money in the bank and there's no job prospects on the horizon, and then the issues of child support, alimony, distribution of assets come up, the questions of what's an athlete's potential in terms of of earnings is always something that's going to be negotiated and it's an incredibly challenging issue. The other issue that's really important, and specifically with the NFL, the NFL, the contracts are not guaranteed. So when someone here is 70 million deals or a $30 million deal, when you're negotiating a Divorce or separation agreement or a child support number, you wanna look at the actual dollars.
Evan Schein (6m 18s):
What is the guaranteed amount that your client and your athlete is earning by which he or she has availability to pay from the source of funds. And a lot of times if an athlete and NFL player is cut, they're never gonna see the back end of that deal. So using your example of Deandre Hopkins, let's say 50 million of the 75 million deal is guaranteed, you wanna focus on that amount of money, not a futuristic amount that he may never realize. And the other unique part of the NFL, these contracts are structured, so many of the deals are incentive based, which is in order to receive the maximum amount under the contract and under the player's deal, there's incentives you need to receive or you need to throw four, 4,000 passing yards.
Evan Schein (7m 1s):
You need to catch 15 touchdowns, you need to play each and every week. So you take an example where an athlete begins a Divorce proceeding in week eight, there's going to be a question as to how much of that season is on the table when it comes to figuring out what amount of money there is to distribute and what amount of money there is to pay someone else in a Divorce.
Ryan Kalamaya (7m 20s):
Yeah, And, we, before the show I sent you a, you know, you're in New York, the case here in Colorado with Steve Sewell and for long time Bronco fans, they would recognize Steve Sewell, you know, as a tight end and, but there was actually a Divorce case that went up and it's a published case. So can you tell our Listeners a little bit about how that fits into what you just described with the incentives with the NFL?
Evan Schein (7m 40s):
Right. It's such a great question and such a great point. And I encourage everyone to read this case because it touches on so many important legal issues that are unique to Professional Athletes who are going through a Divorce specifically on the issue of incentives and bonus compensation. And I'll make this, this distinction in the financial world. Let's say you represent someone who works for a hedge fund, someone who works on Wall Street, who's going through a Divorce. They may receive their bonus the following year in February or March, but that's a bonus for work that was earned and work that was done the year prior. The distinction with the financial orders, that's just when the bonus is paid out. With Steve Sewell in the case, the appellate division made a point to note that in order for him to have received his incentive or the compensation he had to play in the game based on when the schedule was and when the pay was tied to, so he needed to play in the game, he needed to play in the playoffs to earn that compensation.
Evan Schein (8m 39s):
Had he not played in those games, he would likely not have received that compensation. And so the distinction in terms of filing and the season and what games are played after, it's incredibly
Ryan Kalamaya (8m 50s):
Important. You know, you mentioned Tom Brady, I mean everyone, Tom Brady and Giselle, one of the most famous kind of couples, power couples out there. But the kind of analysis, or the analogy would be that if Tom Brady had gone through a Divorce with Gisele in, it was in the middle of the season, he goes to the Super Bowl, if he had some sort of incentive, which he probably did, just given the NFL to play in the Super Bowl or the Pro Bowl, that it's a matter of when is the cutoff date for, Cuz most jurisdictions, I assume you And I talked about before with New York is that generally speaking in a Divorce, a spouse is not entitled to compensation or anything related to earnings after the Divorce is final. And whether that in New York is in Colorado, it's based on when you go to final orders or the decree is entered.
Ryan Kalamaya (9m 32s):
And so you know, when that decree or that final orders hearing goes in can matter in terms of whether that Super Bowl bonus is in play or not, which is essentially what happened in the school case
Evan Schein (9m 43s):
100%. And look, if you represented the wife and Steve Seoul's case, or Gisele in your, you know, analogy, look, there's an argument to be made on the other side too, which is the contract itself was negotiated when they were still married, right? So although the money may not be earned because the game took place after the contract was negotiated, when the parties were still married, there was a benefit that what took place during the marriage. And yes, he may not have physically played in the game, he may not have physically stepped foot on the field at the Super Bowl before the marriage, but there's a benefit in terms of the fact that the contract was signed at a certain point in
Ryan Kalamaya (10m 21s):
Time. Okay, let's switch gears. I played baseball like my birthday was just recently. And so someone, one of my college buddies sent me a cameo recording from this guy who was like, Why didn't you become a a professional baseball player? You could have made millions. And my response is, I was a mediocre college baseball player. I played against Mark Te, who was clearly way better than me, played for the Yankees and, but in baseball had I made it to the major leagues. What's the difference between the NFL or what's unique about the major leagues?
Evan Schein (10m 50s):
Great question Ryan and great point. When it comes to Major League baseball, the contracts are guaranteed. So when you hear that someone signs a 200 million deal or a 10 million deal, that's money that's guaranteed irrespective of injury, irrespective of really anything else. And sure there's some loopholes, but for the most part the money's guaranteed. And the other difference, Major League baseball compared to the NFL, the shelf life for a major league baseball player is much longer. And so you have those two distinctions, which are incredibly important.
Ryan Kalamaya (11m 19s):
So for Rocky's fans that are still bemoaning the fact that Nolan Anato got traded, the reason that the rocks essentially had to pay or pick up part of the contract is because it's, it's guaranteed for out. And so is it your practice or in, in New York, are you trying to figure out with a baseball player what part of the contract is for after the Divorce versus what has been earned during the marriage?
Evan Schein (11m 43s):
It's a huge factor. It's something that you look at the player's contracts all the time. And the other unique thing about baseball, there's so much deferred compensation, there's so much deferred money. And that may be because the team and salary cabinet, and that's across all sports, And, I, think even going back to football for a second, you know, one of the things to look at is the compensation structure is something, the signing bonus that takes place, what a player signs with the team, or is it converted to a roster bonus and a deferred form of compensation, which may happen let's say after the filing. So understanding the contract, understanding the player's deal, and really the way the compensation structure works is incredibly important.
Evan Schein (12m 24s):
Not only in football, not only in baseball, but in all sports,
Ryan Kalamaya (12m 27s):
Right? So it's like the Bobby Bonilla, the kind of one of the most famous financial deals. I mean, he's still getting paid out and he will continue to do so even though he retired, what, like 10 years ago. And so if he goes through a Divorce, you're having to figure out, So Evan, who are the kind of people that you're relying on? Are they financial experts? Are they advisors? Are they, who are the people that you typically work with in connection with a Divorce involving a professional athlete when
Evan Schein (12m 50s):
It comes to representing a professional athlete in a Divorce proceeding, child support proceeding, anything along those lines. You're generally working with a team of advisors. You're working with an Athletes financial advisor, an Athletes business manager at times, the sports agent who represents the athlete and the trust in the state's attorney. I would say those are generally the professionals that are in the Athletes inner financial circle who are incredibly helpful to me as a Divorce attorney when I'm working with a professional
Ryan Kalamaya (13m 17s):
Athlete. And you do entertainers as well. So let's talk about some of the differences with license deals or endorsements, which obviously, you know, you can have some endorsement deals like LeBron James or Michael Jordan with Gatorade or you know, something in, in that realm. But what are the differences that you're seeing or that Divorce Lawyers may not understand that typically don't deal with these kinds of unique cases?
Evan Schein (13m 39s):
Yeah, I think first and foremost, it's going back to something we touched on, which is when is the deal negotiated, signed, and when is the money earned and when it's receipt, I think that's first and foremost. The second thing is we're living in a time where the opportunities for Professional Athletes to make money to brand themselves endorsements, marketing deals, the social media opportunities have never been greater. And so all this money, all the opportunities for Athletes to earn money off the field, even more money off the field. I mean, Athletes, you hear the, the sneaker deals that NBA players have with Nike, Adidas under arbor, they're often greater than the actual playing contract.
Evan Schein (14m 19s):
And the opportunities have never been better, never been greater. And so as a Divorce attorney, you need to look not only at the playing contract, but you need to understand, analyze the compensation structure on the marketing side, endorsement side, how the money's going to be paid out, when is it going to be paid out. And with respect to entertainers and authors and other people in the ENTERTAINMENT industry, understanding the royalties, understanding when the money's going to be received, understanding the licensing deals and how money's going to trickle in it is, is incredibly important whether you're representing the athlete or you're representing the spouse on the other side.
Ryan Kalamaya (14m 58s):
This episode is brought to you by our law firm, Kalamaya Goscha Amy And I describe our law firm as an innovative and ambitious trial team that pushes the boundaries to discover new frontiers in family law, personal injuries and criminal defense in Colorado. We currently have offices in Aspen, Glenwood Springs, Edwards Denver, and Boulder. If you wanna find out more, visit our website, Kalamaya dot law now back to the show. So, okay, so you've got the property aspects, so how much money's in the bank in terms of dealing with the property, but then you also, you mentioned compensation. So when you're analyzing child support or alimony or here in Colorado we call it spousal maintenance, are there various things that you can do to mitigate or reflect the risk?
Ryan Kalamaya (15m 47s):
So if a player gets hurt And, they no longer, they don't have a guaranteed contract or an entertainer that all of a sudden they find themselves in in a controversy and you know they lose a bunch of endorsement deals. What are the things that you can do to address that risk going forward?
Evan Schein (16m 5s):
Right, another great question and first and foremost, you know, I always say, I think when you represent an athlete and entertainer, it's incredibly important to consider having a prenuptial agreement before the marriage. Because a lot of the issues that we're talking about in terms of alimony, in terms of distribution and how to divide assets, I think that's something that could be addressed before an athlete gets married. But in either scenario, and it's a challenge because here's the thing, an athlete and their family get used to living a very nice lifestyle, often filled with cars and houses and vacation homes, and everyone gets accustomed to living a nice lifestyle, which is great when an athlete's bringing home 15 million a year. But what happens when that ends? And an athlete's 32 years old has two, three kids who are four, seven, and nine and the earnings dry up.
Evan Schein (16m 52s):
Or even worse, an athlete didn't save an athlete, didn't have the benefit of a great team, a great financial advisor, sound financial advice, a great estate planning attorney. And so an athlete goes through a Divorce or separation in their early thirties and there's a lifestyle. And so I think these are very challenging issues and unlike any other type of profession, and you know this from your practice, I know this from mine, it's not that easy for Professional Athletes to go out and find a job where the income and the salary is going to be anywhere close to what a professional athlete earned from their incredible physical gifts and playing on the field or playing on the court.
Evan Schein (17m 32s):
So it's a very hard thing to navigate, but hopefully you're able to come to a resolution and figure out a way to, to maintain a lifestyle, but to do it in a reasonable way that accounts for the physical decline in an athlete's physical ability, which is directly tied to an athlete's ability to earn,
Ryan Kalamaya (17m 48s):
Right? So I mean the Tony Roos of the world that were quarterbacks and now our very successful announcers are extremely rare and more often is the case is like Mike Tyson or 50 cent or Adrian Peterson, these various, or Johnny Depp, these various people or entertainers, whether they're sports figures or entertainers that just overspent, And I think that I saw something that NFL players, they file for bankruptcy at even a higher rate than the normal population, which is just a fascinating statistic if my memory serves correctly.
Evan Schein (18m 18s):
Yeah, no, I mean you mentioned you read off some names and look, it's true. And here's the thing, which is we hear these stories, you read about it, you see it on tv, you listen to the news and unfortunately you hear about the sad stories. But there was a recent article about Alvin Camara, the great New Orleans Saints running back and the article was that he's hasn't spent a dollar from his 75 million deal from his playing contract. He's living off and and paying his expenses from his marketing and endorsement opportunities. So for all the names that you've mentioned and all the stories that I hear, you hear all your Listeners hear, there's also good stories. There's the stories of Alvin Kamara, there's the stories of other Athletes who get it right, who work with great financial advisors who make good decisions and build a legacy for their families.
Evan Schein (19m 6s):
But the Tony Romos of the world, look, he makes probably more money for CBS than he did playing quarterback for the Dallas Cowboys. And that's hard to believe. But in a case like that, it's less complicated. The cases where you don't go into broadcasting or coaching and you don't represent someone like Alvin Camaro who's handled things the right way, it's much more of a challenge.
Ryan Kalamaya (19m 25s):
Yeah, and you mentioned prenups, And, we, my partner And I had previously done a couple Episodes at the very beginning of this podcast about premarital agreements. And you know, I mean they can still be challenged. I mean Dr. Dre, you know, is going through that And, we hear about them, right? We can drop these names. What are the things that you do Evan to, to mitigate that, the publicity, the privacy that people are, are really wanting undoubtedly, I mean they're public figures, but they don't want people to be talking about their personal lives. I mean they, they want people to be talking about their results. So what are the things that you can do in your practice to mitigate against that risk?
Evan Schein (20m 4s):
Brian, I love this question and I'll take it from both angles. I'll start with the Divorce angle and then we'll talk about it from the prenup side. When it comes to representing an athlete in a Divorce separation, child support dispute, get ahead of it, right? Get ahead of it and get a deal done. Because if you represent an athlete, you wanna avoid the spotlight, you wanna avoid having this in the media, you know, part of it, a job of an attorney is to shield the client from everything that comes with a story being out there in the public. And so what I recommend is getting a deal done, spending the time spending, you know, the effort to get a deal done in advance. So certain stories, situations don't make the front page of your hometown newspaper and that's not a position you want your client to be in, in, in terms of, the other part of it is, it's harder now than ever before for the same reasons I mentioned in connection with an athlete's opportunity to make money.
Evan Schein (20m 55s):
But social media, it is so hard for Athletes and entertainers and public figures to stay off social media. So if you don't post something for a day or two days, you're fans, the people who follow you are wondering what's going on here. So it's very hard to limit the same publicity that also generates money in terms of branding and marketing and opportunities. But when it comes to representing any one of the public spotlight, I recommend having non-disclosure agreements in place. I recommend having confidentiality agreements in place, And I recommend getting ahead of it and getting a deal done in advance of any joint statement that's issued to avoid the public spotlight that often follows these Divorces and public separations for years.
Evan Schein (21m 37s):
On the early side of it, when it comes to prenups, and you mentioned Dr. Dre and you mentioned, you know, a few other examples, I would put the same language in a prenup in terms of confidentiality, I would put non-disclosure language in a prenuptial agreement as well. And to avoid a challenge, look, you know, you want the strongest possible language in a prenup. You want it to be fair, you want it to be reasonable. There's certain language in New York, which is a requirement, you wanna make sure both sides have an attorney, you wanna do everything you can to get ahead of it, have a properly signed, executed, and notarized prenuptial agreement. And that if something happens, you're gonna first revert back to the prenup and see how to make this work and incorporate that prenup into a separation.
Evan Schein (22m 19s):
Ryan Kalamaya (22m 20s):
Yeah, I wanna get to the social media cuz that is really interesting. I hadn't thought about that in terms of that can be an, an issue with these public figures. But I wanna go back to one thing that you mentioned in terms of getting ahead of it. I know, at least I read that what we do in, in our practice is for these kind of high profile cases that you can often try to get a deal done before even filing I And I think Laura Wasser out in LA that represents a lot of high profile people that at least, you know, there were kind of rumblings that Kim and Kanye were going through Divorce, but they hadn't yet filed. And, and the motivation is to kind of get a deal done before it's even filed in Colorado. We can file, you know, what we do typically, especially in in Aspen where you know, we're representing people that are noteworthy, is to file a, a motion to limit the access So that the public, you know, the newspapers, they don't have access to the court, the open court file, we can get a private judge.
Ryan Kalamaya (23m 13s):
But yeah, I mean you're absolutely right. I mean, we deal with a lot of, we do with criminal offense and especially in a small town like Aspen that'll be on the newspaper and people are often more worried about the repercussions of it being publicized compared to going to jail in a criminal case. And likewise, people don't wanna have their finances splashed all over the newspapers. So getting a deal done early and then you can file everything all at at once, it's one of those things that you, you really have to kinda walk your client through to say, listen, you, you might wanna fight on this particular issue, but is it worth it because your, your brand or or some other negative repercussion could be consequence.
Evan Schein (23m 50s):
Ryan, you're a hundred percent right And you mentioned the word brand for so many Athletes and entertainers, it's a brand, I mean it's more than just playing sports. There's clothing lines, there's image, there's sneaker deals. I mean there, there's endorsements. You represent so many Athletes are the phase four, so many companies and so much thought needs to go into that. And you mention it and you mentioned Laura Wasser, even with the Gates bill and Melinda's Divorce, when people are going to issue a joint statement, nine outta 10 times before that joint statement is issued, a deal's done. So when the filing is made, they already have an agreement and they've been negotiating and reports came out that this was true. They were negotiating a deal for over a year. I mean there were reports that came out that Belinda Gates had met with Divorce attorneys going back to 2019.
Evan Schein (24m 34s):
When you have the money and the resources that we are talking about, there's a right way and a wrong way to go about this because there's so much more that's at stake and it benefits nobody, nobody, when everybody's personal life is broadcast inside a courtroom, but we're living in a different age. I mean it used to be 10, 15, 20, 30 years ago where you wanted to know something, you would open up the front page of your newspaper and you would read about it. Not 10 minutes later, but the next day now when something happens, it's on Instagram, it's on Facebook, it's on Twitter, you're reading about it, you're listening to a podcast about it. I mean, we get our news right away. And so if something happens in terms of an athlete and their brand or there's a high profile Divorce, there's no lag time between when it happens and when we read about it, it's a story and it continues and people continue to follow it on social media, but there is always a domino effect in terms of an athlete and their brand or an entertainer and their brand if something is not handled the
Ryan Kalamaya (25m 31s):
Right way. Now, and that brings us to social media. I mean it's, and as listers know, I mean we've had experts on social media and And, we, my partner And I have cohost, have talked about it before. I mean we're very cognizant about And. We talked to our clients about social media and it's one of those things that it can be the source of evidence in a family law case. So Evan, how do you walk a client that relies on revenue from Instagram or Twitter or some other social media with the balancing being authentic and being transparent about what's going on in their life versus that it could come back and really haunt them. So what are the things that you have to walk through with your spars and ENTERTAINMENT clients when it comes to social media, if especially if there are kids involved?
Ryan Kalamaya (26m 16s):
And we, we'll talk about next.
Evan Schein (26m 18s):
Brian, I love this question and what I tell everyone is don't disparage your partner. Don't disparage your spouse on social media. Think about social media, you know, and you mention it in your cases. My case is, you know, the types of clients that we work with. Be smart. You know, I understand that social media is a financial benefit to that in terms of the brand, in terms of keeping up with content, in terms of sponsorships, in terms of marketing and endorsements. But be smart about it. It, you know, don't use it as an opportunity to say what someone is or isn't doing with your kits. You know, you wanna focus on certain aspects of your life because you need to keep up your brand and be authentic for your followers. And that's one thing and that's fine.
Evan Schein (26m 57s):
But far too often I see too many Athletes and entertainers and public figures taking that next step, wanting to disparage or speak negatively about their spouse, especially as it relates to their children. And whether you're an athlete or any client, that's a no-no. I mean that should go without saying nothing good comes out of that. Don't take it to social media. It's not something you're gonna want your kids to read about years down the road or be part of it. And again, nobody benefits if you're gonna be on social media, be smart about it, put up content that there's a benefit to it. But don't take that next level. Don't litigate your Divorce on social media.
Ryan Kalamaya (27m 36s):
And I, remember listening to your podcast Schein on and you told a story about Tom Brady and after he won the Super Bowl and embracing his son, can you share that with our, our Listeners that, you know, I hope you remember what this kind of vignette that I'm referring to. No
Evan Schein (27m 49s):
Ryan, I appreciate it and no, I remember talking about it on the Schein on podcast and Tom Brady is someone who gets it. Look, not only on the field, And I mean first ball hall of famer. We could have like the BA best quarterback of all time or not.
Ryan Kalamaya (27m 59s):
Yeah, be careful Evan. Cause I mean we're in Colorado
Evan Schein (28m 1s):
I know my audience. And I. That's what I said. You know, we, we can have that debate. But look, Tom Brady, he gets it off the field because he has figured out a way to make it work with Gisele and Bridge Monahan. And there's a history there in terms of relationship and a son that he had from a prior relationship. But the blending of the families is, and that could be a whole podcast topic for another day, but the way Tom Brady and Gisele Bridge Monahan have managed to blend their families. And you mentioned there was a moment after the Super Bowl and he often does this where he wishes or he looks for his son Jack in the stands and you see Gisele and Bridge Monahan, you know, make comments and really positive ones to Tom Brady wishing him good luck and Tom Brady wishes Bridge and Morning Hannah, a happy birthday.
Evan Schein (28m 48s):
Those are the positive comments. That's what you wanna see on social media. That's what you, how you wanna speak about an X, that's what you want your child to see. Those are the words you want your child to read, the words you want your child to hear. That's the good stuff. And that's the story like, just like the Alvin Caba story. We don't hear enough about the great things that Athletes do off the field on social media, in the financial world, in the communities because the attention is on what goes wrong. But that Tom Brady story, seeing that reading about it, absolutely fantastic. Yeah.
Ryan Kalamaya (29m 21s):
Which brings us to parenting. So what are the unique, I mean you've got the NFL schedule where they're traveling a bunch or an entertainer that maybe not over the last year with Covid is a singer may not be on the road dealing with concerts, but how do you navigate the parenting issues for someone in the sports world?
Evan Schein (29m 40s):
The key is consistency and stability. It's good for the kids, it's good for the parents. Each sport is different. And so for example, you talk about, you know, the NFL And, we touched on, you know, the National Football League earlier, but let's talk about it in connection with parenting. The NFL plays in the fall and winter, right? So it's every Sunday, but during, and whether it's a road game or a home game, the athlete is home in the hometown during the week. So it's less complicated because it's one game on Sundays and it's for a short of time period. But let's talk about Major League baseball, 162 games schedule, then you have spring training. A lot of time is spent on the road, a lot of time is spent traveling and it becomes more complicated the way I do it when I work with Athletes, especially regardless in all sports, you know the schedule in advance, you know the schedule a year in advance, you know when spring training is, you know where spring training's going to be.
Evan Schein (30m 31s):
You know, when the playoffs are in any sport, account for it, get ahead of it. Often when I represent and work with Athletes, there's a few different schedules. There's a schedule for what an athlete, let's use the baseball context is going to be in Florida or Arizona in spring training. There might be a different schedule when an athlete is on the road and there might be a different schedule when the athlete is home. It's unique to each sport, it's unique to obviously each athlete. And it also depends on the age of the child because sometimes the child may visit or spend time with the athlete on the road. Obviously not to conflict with school, but it also depends on the age of the child. The other unique issue that comes up all the time, and this is a challenge, is free agency or when an athlete gets traded, right, You hear about the deals, five year deals, 10 year deals, and look, so much goes on And.
Evan Schein (31m 19s):
We often wonder, you know, as fans of different Athletes, why someone signs a 10 year deal. Why does someone sign a eight year deal to play for a team that never wins? And you know, as fans we question it, but there's so much more that goes into these deals in terms of stability and consistency for families. But what happens if that consistency is upended? What happens if an athlete gets traded from Colorado to where you are to New York and then the athlete finishes the season in New York and then gets traded somewhere else, Or there's where the Athletes a free agent. And so things are constantly changing, constantly moving. So planning, getting ahead of it is important. But sometimes you need to be able to have carve-outs.
Evan Schein (31m 59s):
And I often do this in agreements where you have carve-outs that account for situations such as free agency, such as if an athlete or player is traded midyear.
Ryan Kalamaya (32m 9s):
Yeah, And I, remember Clayton Kershaw, the Los Angeles Dodgers pitcher, He has kids around, I have seven year old and a four year old, and he's got kids around the same age. I remember listening to an interview asking him about what it's like to be a dad and he was talking about how his sleeps, it was like a newborn and the newborn was sleeping until like 11 o'clock because he gets home from, you know, night games typically. And he spends, and you know, me having some familiarity with professional baseball players. I mean, they're up late at night, so they're typical normal day, you know, they typically sleep until 11 or noon because they're up late at night and their kids and their families have to revolve around that. Same thing with the nba.
Ryan Kalamaya (32m 49s):
I mean there a lot of these players will talk about, hey, it's great to be on a Christmas day, like when everyone is watching, but it's not so great when you're away from your family. And so when us Divorce attorneys, we're having to, I mean we deal with Christmas or Thanksgiving, those are those big holidays and it's different for Professional Athletes who might be, you know, playing that day.
Evan Schein (33m 12s):
It's a hundred percent different and, and Ryan, you're spot on. You know, we negotiate agreements all the time, holidays, vacation, school breaks. But it's challenging when you represent Athletes and entertainers because of the nuances of their schedules. You're not talking about just factoring in the child's schedule. It's the parent's schedule. Is the parent at home? Is the parent on the road? Where is the parent? Let's say, is it on the west coast, East coast? What's the distance? How does someone get there? What's the age of the child? There's so much that goes into this that separates this area of the law. And when you work with an athlete or someone who travels extensively and who spends so much time on the road, yet what makes them so successful financially is also tied to it.
Evan Schein (33m 53s):
So there's so much that goes into it and so much to think about. It's an incredibly challenging area of the law.
Ryan Kalamaya (33m 58s):
And, I wanna wrap up Evan, When in terms of, I mean Divorce Lawyers we're typically competitive type A people. I mean that's just kind of the nature of the business. It's also the same thing with, I mean with Athletes and entertainers, I mean they, they're really competitive. So how do you balance that competitive aspect? A client that says, I wanna win my Divorce, you know, they're competitive, just that's their personality. How do you reconcile that? Because they're so geared to thinking and winning and losing and results instead of compromise and because it's just, it's counter to what they do as a profession. So how do you deal with that as a a Divorce lawyer?
Evan Schein (34m 37s):
Ryan, the way I deal with it is I redefine winning. And you're right, if you're an athlete, you associate winning really just one way. You either win the game or you don't. You either score 30 points or you don't. But what I do is I redefine what it means to win because an athlete needs to change their mindset. It can't be I need to pay X or I need to pay Y. The way you redefine winning when you represent and work with an athlete or an entertainer, it's about getting it done. It's about avoiding the spotlight. Sure, it's about getting the best possible deal you can, but you also have to be smart as to what you're arguing over and fighting over in terms of getting it done, avoiding the spotlight, avoiding the publicity, moving on, moving forward.
Evan Schein (35m 17s):
There's a price to that and Trust me what I tell you, it is an incredibly valuable press.
Ryan Kalamaya (35m 22s):
Yeah, and, and one thing I will typically do with clients is to ask them, what do you see your son or daughter's high school graduation like? Or in my mind, a win in a Divorce is in two years I bump into my client And, they say we're able to get along. I mean, you can't guarantee that, but I'm sure you have seen it where people will fight over something that is really important to them at the time and you know, they get it or they get what is a great financial deal, but they drive the spouse the other party to just despise them so much that it ends up coming back to haunt them in a year or two when they're having to, especially when they're dealing with kids.
Evan Schein (36m 1s):
And it's so hard to come back from that. You know, we talked about Tom Brady and that relationship and the blending of families. Once you go to a certain place in a Divorce, and it can be an athlete or it can be anyone that we represent, it's so challenging to make that co-parenting relationship work again. And there is a benefit financially, but the bigger benefit is with your kids and their relationship and the flexibility that you're going to want from the other parent. You know, people lose sight that co-parenting, it's not easy. Things are gonna come up, whether you're an athlete and you're traveling and you want your child to come see you play on the road, well someone's gonna have to get the child there. And so things are going to come up and you're going to need the other parent's assistance and flexibility and compromise.
Evan Schein (36m 42s):
And so instead of arguing over something that is small or something that you don't really need to fight about, think about all the benefits to not only getting the deal done, but redefine what it means to win and focus on having that great co-parenting relationship going forward and moving on with the process.
Ryan Kalamaya (36m 59s):
Well Evan, thank you again for the time. It's so interesting. I mean, at least for me as an avid sports fan and you know, a former athlete myself, not on that same level, but I can appreciate those issues. But also the intellectual aspects of dealing with the licenses, the royalties, and the complicated aspects when a lot is at stake. I mean, millions of dollars typically are being addressed if not billion dollars. And so, you know, I really appreciate your insights for people that wanna find out more about you. We mentioned the Schein on podcast, is that, can you tell our Listeners, where can they find that? Yeah,
Evan Schein (37m 32s):
Ryan, I appreciate it. Again, thank you for having me on. People could follow me on social media, Evan, Schein, people could listen to the Schein on podcast, Apple, Spotify, Google, where everyone listens to their to their podcast. My website is bebot.com, the name of the company and my firm is Berkman Vodka Newman Schein. And my other website is Schein on Divorce dot com.
Ryan Kalamaya (37m 52s):
And you, your firm deals with not just ENTERTAINMENT and Sports Divorces, but generally in New York City or throughout the New York metropolitan area, right?
Evan Schein (38m 2s):
That's correct. We have 22 attorneys, four offices in New York City. We have an office in New Jersey as well. We work and specialize in working with clients, going through Divorce all family law at Metro issues. That's our focus and that's our specialty.
Ryan Kalamaya (38m 15s):
Well, you've got the Manhattan in your backdrop there, and now that we can travel, we're recording this post, you know, or at least in the kind of travel area or post covid, so to speak. So I look forward to visiting New York City and hey, if you're ever in in the Denver area or Aspen drop, drop a line. Just don't, you know, be easy on the Tom Brady references, at least here in Colorado
Evan Schein (38m 38s):
Ryan. I would absolutely love that. I'll keep the Tom Brady references to the East Coast. But again, thank you for having me on. I could talk about this stuff all day long. It's such an interesting area of the law, your focus and your specialty in Colorado, what I do here in New York. Thank you for having me on.
Ryan Kalamaya (38m 51s):
Thanks again, Evan Hey, everyone. This is Ryan again. Thank you for joining us on Divorce at Altitude. If you found our tips, insight, or discussion helpful, please tell a friend about this podcast. For show notes, additional resources or links mentioned on today's episode, visit Divorce at Altitude dot com. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen in. Many of our Episodes are also posted on YouTube. You can also find Amy and me at Kalamaya.law or 970-315-2365. That's K A L A M A Y A.law