Divorce at Altitude: A Podcast on Colorado Family Law

Top Episodes of 2022 | Episode 137

January 12, 2023 Ryan Kalamaya & Amy Goscha Season 1 Episode 137
Top Episodes of 2022 | Episode 137
Divorce at Altitude: A Podcast on Colorado Family Law
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Divorce at Altitude: A Podcast on Colorado Family Law
Top Episodes of 2022 | Episode 137
Jan 12, 2023 Season 1 Episode 137
Ryan Kalamaya & Amy Goscha

Today, we delve into our top five episodes from 2022. Tune in to hear which episodes we found most enriching and what you can learn from them, as practitioners or as someone going through a divorce. We share powerful insights from each conversation, along with practical resources from each of our guests. So tune in today for an overview of the best of 2022, as we look forward to an enriching and growth-filled 2023. Thanks for listening! 

Key Points From This Episode:

Thank you to our listeners for your support in 2022!

What is Divorce at Altitude?

Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha provide tips and recommendations on issues related to divorce, separation, and co-parenting in Colorado. Ryan and Amy are the founding partners of an innovative and ambitious law firm, Kalamaya | Goscha, that pushes the boundaries to discover new frontiers in family law, personal injuries, and criminal defense in Colorado.

To subscribe to Divorce at Altitude, click here and select your favorite podcast player. To subscribe to Kalamaya | Goscha's YouTube channel where many of the episodes will be posted as videos, click here. If you have additional questions or would like to speak to one of our attorneys, give us a call at 970-429-5784 or email us at info@kalamaya.law.



Show Notes Transcript

Today, we delve into our top five episodes from 2022. Tune in to hear which episodes we found most enriching and what you can learn from them, as practitioners or as someone going through a divorce. We share powerful insights from each conversation, along with practical resources from each of our guests. So tune in today for an overview of the best of 2022, as we look forward to an enriching and growth-filled 2023. Thanks for listening! 

Key Points From This Episode:

Thank you to our listeners for your support in 2022!

What is Divorce at Altitude?

Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha provide tips and recommendations on issues related to divorce, separation, and co-parenting in Colorado. Ryan and Amy are the founding partners of an innovative and ambitious law firm, Kalamaya | Goscha, that pushes the boundaries to discover new frontiers in family law, personal injuries, and criminal defense in Colorado.

To subscribe to Divorce at Altitude, click here and select your favorite podcast player. To subscribe to Kalamaya | Goscha's YouTube channel where many of the episodes will be posted as videos, click here. If you have additional questions or would like to speak to one of our attorneys, give us a call at 970-429-5784 or email us at info@kalamaya.law.



Ryan Kalamaya (3s):
Hey everyone. I'm Ryan Kalamaya.

Amy Goscha (6s):
And I'm Amy Goscha.

Ryan Kalamaya (8s):
Welcome to the Divorce at Altitude A Podcast on Colorado Family Law.

Amy Goscha (13s):
Divorce is not easy. It really sucks. Trust me I know Besides. being an experienced divorce attorney, I'm also a Divorce client.

Ryan Kalamaya (20s):
Whether you are someone considering divorce or a fellow family law attorney, listen in for weekly tips and insight into topics related to Divorce co parenting and Separation in Colorado Welcome Back to another episode of Divorce at Altitude. On this podcast, we embark on an exploration of life during and after Divorce, and how to use the experience as a source of power. Join us as we dive into the archives this week and pick our top five Episodes from 2022. We're gonna unearth stories of resilience, healing and growth through conversations with inspiring guests.

Ryan Kalamaya (1m 5s):
We shine a light on the struggles of Divorce and show that it can be a transformational experience when approached with courage, creativity, and curiosity. So let's get started with the first episode on our top five list. And I really enjoyed discussing Divorcing a Narcissist with Tracy Malone. It was episode 94. Now Tracy, she's a survivor of narcissistic abuse herself and she shared with us her experience and discussed her book Divorcing A Narcissist. You can't make this shit up. And so what we're gonna do is have a segment from that episode for those that missed it.

Ryan Kalamaya (1m 50s):
And. if you're intrigued and you wanna learn more, you can go back and listen to episode 94 where we walked through the Different types of narcissists in the various war tactics that they might bring to a Divorce scenario. And Tracy And I discussed how to identify a Narcissist projections as confessions and discover the critical importance of paying attention to detail in making sure you have a watertight strategy that protects you from future abuse. So let's listen in on a segment from that episode before we discuss our other remaining four Episodes from 2022.

Ryan Kalamaya (2m 34s):
So I wanna first start off and because I heard you coin the two new types of narcissists that are very important to understand for the Divorce process. But can you for our listeners, talk to me about the Different types of narcissists?

Tracy Malone (2m 51s):
Sure. So the problem is the perception of a Narcissist being very grandiose, very out there and flamboyant. You would know if they'd like to look in the mirror and talk about themselves all the time. And, and that's the danger is that people think that is the person. My therapist thought that was a person instead of knowing that there are other types, like a covert Narcissist is one who is charming and everybody loves them. They're in the church, you know, in the system, they're pillars of the community and yet behind closed doors it's a different game. They are not like that. They are abusive. And whether it's very aggressive abuse or verbal and more silent treatment and passive aggressive ways for the book, knowing the the overt which is the grandiose type covert which is the one that's always missed.

Tracy Malone (3m 42s):
What I found as I did all my research, And I was building my book was it really matters. And I call out the rich and the poor Narcissist, A rich Narcissist amps up that entitlement that Narcissist have and they fight to the death. They like destroy their opponent, which is their spouse and usually cost more than they would've had to give the person in legal fees just to prove that they're right. And so they will, you know, go to no ends including having their spouse arrested or calling child protective services. You don't find that in a normal Divorce, whereas a poor Narcissist is one who is going to want your assets, they're gonna go after everything that you have.

Tracy Malone (4m 26s):
So you've got a different defense in the game here, right? A normal person with normal money is gonna do the normal tasks but it's gonna be ramped up for the rich one. They are going to be out for blood and to destroy you. And then the poor one is os I had a client who was married, it's in the book, she was married for two months. He said, I don't have a bank account in town now why don't we put me on your bank account? And then she put the deposit down on the house out of that bank account and it was now joint property. So because he was on the account, so it's this, this sort of, he fought for a year for everything that was hers and they'd were only married for two months

Ryan Kalamaya (5m 6s):
And certainly have heard of those horror stories and have seen them. And you know, you Tracy, we before the show I told you a little bit about our hypothetical Divorce couple Eric and Melanie Wolf. And so is it fair kind of to kind of put concrete examples, if Eric and Melanie are going through a Divorce and Eric Scott just gobs of money and he's a control freak and he's what you would characterize as a rich Narcissist, he, what that would look like in a Divorce is him telling his attorney, I wanted Barry Melanie, we're gonna litigate every single issue that can be addressed.

Ryan Kalamaya (5m 48s):
I'm not, I'm gonna try to not pay her attorney's fees and just really use his money for his own personality. you know, gains or that would be kind of how it would play out, right?

Tracy Malone (6m 3s):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean the the, the things and the levels to which any Narcissist will go through from the stonewalling and the projecting, they are always projecting whatever they're doing is actually a confession. When they're telling you you're hiding money, they're probably hiding it. And if they sort of pull that card out of the deck first to accuse you of that, it's really hard for your team to be like, well no actually it's them. It's hard to flip it around because they pulled it out first, right? And then you're playing defense. So the tactics that they use are, you know, again, not like anything else you'll see in a Divorce. Yes you'll get a little bit of lying or false allegations, but it's that ramping up that takes that false allegation to child abuse claims to having you committed.

Tracy Malone (6m 49s):
I can't tell you how many clients of mine get committed get put in jail because they're going through a Divorce and it's like what did I do? I was the happy wife or I was the happy husband. Why am I getting accused of all these things? And it's because the narcissists need to win and it doesn't matter what the cost is. This is where we really see the no empathy part come into their life is they don't care what they do to you. And squishing you is just a game.

Ryan Kalamaya (7m 16s):
Now if you are dealing with a Narcissist as Tracy And I discussed in episode 94, you undoubtedly are talking about enforcement and non-compliance with court Orders. And that brings us to our second episode that was one of my favorites of 2022 when I sat down and talked with Halle Omidi, an attorney, Denver attorney about Enforcing court Orders without Filing for Contempt And I learned a lot in this episode that was really beneficial for my practice. But I think that listeners, whether they're attorneys, other professionals in the Divorce world or a client going through a Divorce think one could learn a lot from this episode and the most frequent types of complaints that attorneys hear from clients are issues of non-compliance after a Divorce in Filing for Contempt of court is a common approach.

Ryan Kalamaya (8m 19s):
And there is an episode with one of my partners, Georgina Melbye, where Amy And her talk about Filing for Contempt. But really there can be an increase in tensions and sometimes Contempt is not the best way to resolve the dispute and it can make co-parenting difficult. So Halleh And I talk about different options and we go through a rule 70 under rule 70, the civil rules of procedure to enforce a judgment, a motion to enforce parenting time and other different options. So here's a a snippet from that conversation that gives you a flavor of what Halleh And I talk about in episode one 20.

Ryan Kalamaya (9m 7s):
One of the things that on your bio you talk about is parenting and how you got into Family. Law I mean some of the experience in the juvenile system. And so that's a segue into motions to enforce parenting time. So one of the things that we see are people that get, you know, sideways or they have disputes on parenting. So you know there's Contempt but what's an Alternative to Contempt for people that aren't familiar with motion to enforce parenting time?

Halleh Omidi (9m 36s):
Yeah, so motion to enforce parenting time is probably the easiest approach when you're dealing with, with post decree enforcement problems rather than a Contempt And I think, you know, the knee-jerk reaction often is from a lot of clients just because they don't know as to hey, you know, my ex isn't following the court Orders, I wanna file a Contempt because they just know that's the buzzword if someone's not following the court Orders. But I think really it's our job as counsel to educate clients about really the beauty of motion to enforce under 14 10, 1 29 0.5 because it really gives parties a whole host of remedies that really are not available to them under a Contempt. And that's really the beauty of it.

Halleh Omidi (10m 16s):
So essentially it's a motion where you allege that the other parent isn't complying with the parenting time order. So for example, it was, let's say it's my client's winter break parenting time and dad didn't turn over the children. And so you know, client doesn't get to exercise winter break parenting time. So that's a perfect example of when a motion to enforce parenting time probably would be the next best step. So it's nice because you can get into the courtroom a lot quicker, a lot easier than a Contempt. So you file the motion, it's gotta be a verified motion. So the court, you know, has to be able to make sure that it's verified in order to have a basis to rule on it. And from there our statute really sets forth what the parameters are.

Halleh Omidi (10m 58s):
The court has 35 days to rule on it, which is a nice tight timeframe. And from there the court can deny it on its face if the court finds it to be inadequate, which doesn't happen all the time, they can set it for hearing, which is typically what happens or require the parties to attend mediation within 63 days. That also is an option that happens. Usually it's kind of a first order preliminary order from the judge is okay you guys go to mediation, try to figure this out and then if not setting up for hearing.

Ryan Kalamaya (11m 28s):
Yeah I know that that's what would largely happen in the mountain districts that I primarily practice in. But Halleh to your point, I could see a judge if, if someone is five minutes late to a parenting exchange, you know, don't file for Contempt, don't file a motion to enforce parenting time because the judge is likely gonna say roll their eyes and not look on that kindly. If it is one aspect of of you know that they're habitually late and it's just this really offensive pattern, that might be a different story. But people I think really need to, you know, hear what you're saying in terms of the verification.

Ryan Kalamaya (12m 8s):
That means that they're saying on penalty of perjury that these allegations are true and they probably need to be fairly detailed to give a full picture to the judge. But can you talk Halleh a little bit about some of the remedies cuz I think that that for listeners they may not be aware and they're actually a fair amount if they look at the statute. If listeners that you know aren't lawyers, they can look at the statute, there's a whole range of different remedies instead of the go to jail or pay a fine that is available under Contempt. So talk to me a little bit about the remedies.

Halleh Omidi (12m 43s):
Yeah sure. As you said, there's a list of under the statute and sometimes it's nice best practice when you're Filing the motion to essentially all then you can, you can pick and choose what you really want as it gets closer to hearing, but you might not wanna pigeonhole yourself into one or two cause there is a long list. But you know, I think one of the important ones is that the court can order additional terms and conditions that are consistent with the best interest of the child. So you can essentially modify the prior order in a Contempt you're not, you're truly looking at an enforcement action, you're not modifying anything. And so you know, if there is this pattern of non-compliance then perhaps there should be some changes made to the parenting time schedule on the best interest of the child or the children.

Halleh Omidi (13m 29s):
So that's something that I think is often overlooked with motion to enforce parenting time. But something that really can be helpful to a party that is essentially the aggrieves party In these cases the court can impose additional terms and conditions. So for example, you know I, I've had motion to enforce parenting time filed before where I had a client who, you know, had his child and ex lived in Colorado and so he would come out here to exercise parenting time on a long distance schedule for certain holidays. So it was Thanksgiving breaks several years ago he was to exercise parenting time, you know, he got plane tickets out here, he had a rental car, he had a hotel, he took time off of work and he shows up and mom won't exchange the child with him.

Halleh Omidi (14m 17s):
And so you know, he's stuck here on a holiday without his child after all of this expense. And so you know, he can ask the court to impose additional terms and conditions and so maybe that is that the child is going to come visit him now in the state that he lives in. So like he doesn't have to infer those classes. I mean you can get creative with it to fit the issues that you have going on in your case. Couple other things the court can do. The court can require the person that's the wrongdoer essentially to attend a parental education class, they can be ordered to, to participate in family counseling. The non-comp complying party can be ordered to post a bond or security to ensure future compliance.

Halleh Omidi (15m 1s):
In that case I was just talking about with Thanksgiving, mom was ordered to do that so that she did not cause issues for him again with future instances of holiday parenting time. So if you have to post a bond, that means that's, that's posted with the court so that you know she's really got some skin in the game so that these types of issues aren't happening in the future. Makeup parenting time can be ordered and that's usually the most common one that folks are seeking. you know, if you're missing your Thanksgiving then you want makeup parenting time for Thanksgiving. Our statute says that parenting time can be made up of the same type duration of which was denied.

Halleh Omidi (15m 41s):
So if it was a weekend, a holiday summer and it's supposed to be made up within six months but obviously if you miss Thanksgiving you can't get the same Thanksgiving again in six months. So you're looking at getting, you know, Thanksgiving next year to make up for it. So there's again just a quite the laundry list. A couple other things just to touch on. The court can impose a civil fine not to exceed a hundred dollars per instance of denied parenting time. That doesn't go to the complying parent, it goes to the state treasurer when it goes to like this dispute resolution fund that we have. The court can essentially make any Orders that promote the best interest of the child.

Halleh Omidi (16m 21s):
So that is just this giant catch-All of the court can do whatever is necessary to make sure that the best interest of the child are promoted. The court can essentially order the non-compliant parent to be held in Contempt of court and impose a jail sentence. So that's where this really intersects with rule 1 0 7 with Contempt. There's a little bit of a debate about if you want that, if you should file a separate Contempt pleading to so that there aren't due process concerns. And, I've seen parties argue that two different ways, but that's essentially the laundry list of the remedies that are available to one under the section statute.

Ryan Kalamaya (16m 59s):
Okay, the third episode in our top five favorites from 2022 was when I was talking to Les Katz about Navigating a high Conflict Divorce And I really like Halleh. I learned a lot from this episode and dealing with a high Conflict Divorce. We talk about what high Conflict personalities are and how a high Conflict Divorce can be different than a quote normal Divorce. But Dr. Les Katz is someone that I really respect and he I think has been very thoughtful in his approach to high Conflict and in particular when children are involved because he as a well known parenting evaluator sees some of the worst of the worst.

Ryan Kalamaya (17m 56s):
And he is a psychologist who has spent many years as a therapist working with families and now conducts evaluations to determine what actions would be in the best interest of the children. Children are negatively affected when there's destructive Conflict which is opposed to constructive Conflict. And we talk about that on this episode. But again, like my episode with Halleh really I learned a lot from this conversation in episode one 13 with Dr. Les Katz. So hopefully you can get a flavor of the episode and whether or not it might be something for you in this segment from episode one 13 with Dr.

Ryan Kalamaya (18m 43s):
Les Katz. Just for listeners we'll have links in the show notes, but the authors that you referenced is Johnston and Campbell and the book is Impass of Divorce, the Dynamics and Resolution of Family Conflict and Dr. Katz. I'm curious, there's a fair amount written about And. I can tell you from experience where clients like Eric Wolf will come to me and he will say this is all Melanie's fault. And you know you And I were talking before the show, you had read the Eric Wolf story that we have on our website and it's in episode one for listeners, it's also published. But you mentioned, you know, this sounds like a high Conflict, you know it's like a tinderbox for high Conflict Divorce.

Ryan Kalamaya (19m 25s):
And how often in your experience, cuz you see, you see these cases all the time, that's what you deal with frequently, that's why they come to you, that you're one of the go-tos forres. How often is it that the majority, if not all of the blame is on one particular party? Well let's say Eric and Melanie Wolf or Melanie Wolf is just a high Conflict personality, hcp some people will use that term versus the dynamic is both Eric and Melanie being more or less equally responsible for the quote high Conflict Divorce.

Ryan Kalamaya (20m 6s):
I'm just curious how often you think it's one person versus two people?

Dr. Les Katz (20m 14s):
Well so I almost never think it's one person. I do think sometimes that one person is playing more of a role in the problem. I've been involved in cases where one parent has a significant psychiatric problem and you know, a lot more of the concern and focus will be on that person if they're staying involved with their kids because you know they're out of their minds in a lot of ways during the course of a Divorce and maybe having delusions or hallucinations or have a paranoid delusion about the other parent. And so sometimes it's more of that, but even in those cases I see how the other parent might handle that or respond to it.

Dr. Les Katz (21m 1s):
And is it a useful way or is it throwing fuel on the fire? you know, you know it's interesting because of the nature of my work, I always gotta see both sides and it's always, you have to see somebody first, you know, and you listen to the first person and you kind of go, wow, you know, what a terrible situation that they're in and what a terrible person that other person is. And I end the session, And I, just try to get it out of my mind and then whatever the next week I'm meeting with the other parent, And I go boy what a terrible situation this person is in. And you can really, when you see both sides, it's a very different thing.

Dr. Les Katz (21m 42s):
you know, I remember I was training somebody that I worked with for a number of years and the very first case we did the two first interviews with the parents and this young psychologist who I really thought was gonna be good says to me that father's gonna be just the worst parent. And I said, just wait, you know, just wait. And so then we saw the parents with the children and what was obvious is that he was a really wonderful parent and that the mother who talked a much better game about parenting in the heat of the moment was not able to, you know, respond effectively to her kids.

Dr. Les Katz (22m 24s):
And my colleague was red faced and said okay, I need to learn how to wait. And so, you know, you really can't jump to a conclusion that something is one person's fault. It rarely is they're both usually involved in one way or another. Even if one person seems to initiate some things, the other person's responses to that are also participating in something that can be very destructive. And so I just don't see it very often that I think it's all related to one of the parents.

Ryan Kalamaya (23m 4s):
I'm also curious, there's another podcast I listen to, Andrew Huberman, he's a neuroscientist in California in Stanford and he had an episode about grief and the neuroscience on grief. And it makes sense to me just in my observation that going through a Divorce is very similar to losing a loved one. you know in that grief process cuz you're losing the marriage and you know the seven stages of grief, you hear that and you go through the kind of depression, the anger, the denial and the issue is there's complicated and uncomplicated grief. Do you think it's fair to say that high Conflict Divorce is a situation where, and we've heard stories about people that just cannot get over grief or losing someone and is that an appropriate analogy where they just cannot get over the Divorce and they just results in this prolonged Conflict cuz they just can't essentially bury the hatchet for lack of a better term?

Dr. Les Katz (24m 6s):
Yeah, I think, you know, it's very hard for people to grieve and it's sometimes a lot easier to be angry. And I know that's, you know, one of the stages of grief. But nonetheless it's like, you know, somebody can't tolerate those feelings and it's can be a crushing blow because you know, people don't start a family with the idea of, you know, we won't be together, And I will only see my children half time or one quarter time or whatever it is. Nobody starts that way. And so the pain of losing the family, of losing what you had however flawed it might have been, can be intolerable and can be crushing and does make it difficult.

Dr. Les Katz (24m 56s):
Some people can't figure out how to get over that and that's why, you know, the sort of that traumatic Separation kind of thing and even like I've seen this happen a number of times where parents in a high Conflict situation find arenas where they can work together and the working together itself leads to more Conflict. They've been very successful at doing something and whatever it might be, working with their kid who's sick and figuring out some things about it and how to work together or somebody, a friend, a mutual friend is ill and they are able to connect with each other and the act of connecting touches off such grief that they're often fighting almost immediately afterwards cause they can't tolerate the I love this person and now it's over and these were the good feelings I used to have when we were together.

Dr. Les Katz (26m 2s):
And not all people do that. Some people can really tolerate their feelings and talk about 'em and you know, have maintained some mutual respect but, but you know, it seems almost contrary you think, oh that's great, they got along with each other and five minutes later, you know, the police are being called.

Ryan Kalamaya (26m 22s):
In episode four of our top five we're gonna be talking about money and specifically Forensic Accounting and the Divorce Money Guide. In episode one 16 I sat down with Tracy Conan who is a CPA and she focuses on Forensic Accounting. And oftentimes when people go through a Divorce they ask where did my money go? And they do kind of an examination kind of, you know, similar to this examination or introspection on the best Episodes that we put out in 2022. But when people go through a Divorce, they really have to kind of critically go through their financials.

Ryan Kalamaya (27m 5s):
And our guest in episode one 16, Tracy Conan talks about what Forensic Accounting entails. And it's something that often I am asked about by clients and, and people I think they hear Forensic Accounting much like you know, narcissism. There are terms that are frequently associated with Divorce, but Tracy gets into looking at bank statements, loan statements, credit card statements and the like to determine whether or not there's any improper expenditures. And what we discuss on our episode is her project, the Divorce Money Guide and coming out with a system to really examine on your own some of the red flags that come up in a Divorce.

Ryan Kalamaya (27m 56s):
And she talks about what motivated her to create the Divorce money guide and Forensic Accounting and some examples of red flags to look out for in relation to finances and Divorce. So this snippet hopefully gives you an idea of what Tracy And I talked about, about Forensic Accounting. So Tracy for listeners, I, I mentioned the Divorce money guide. So who did you create the money guide for? So we have kind of a, an established, you know, playing

Tracy Coenen (28m 28s):
Field. The Divorce money guide is for the person who is going through the process of Divorce who either just doesn't know enough about the money in their family situation or has suspicions about where their money has gone and is unable to hire a Forensic accountant. So it's sort of a do-it-yourself with the help of an expert. And so the person that I was thinking about when I created this product, even though it's really for anyone who wants to use it, I was specifically thinking about a stay-at-home mom who's probably aged 35 to 45 with a few school-age children who hasn't been actively involved in managing the family's finances because her husband has been in control of it and she has suspicions about the money and her husband is probably even having an affair.

Tracy Coenen (29m 13s):
So we know already just by the fact that he is having an affair, that there has probably been some money spent inappropriately, some marital money that has been spent on these activities maybe for dinners out hotels, gifts, things like that.

Ryan Kalamaya (29m 26s):
And Tracy, you said most of your clients are in Chicago, but you do have a nationwide practice. So if I were to call you And I, think that this is just helpful for people Melanie Wolf or your stay-at-home mom with three kids in Colorado to understand, so what first of all is a Forensic accountant or Accounting and you know, can you give us an idea of how much that costs? Because I think if listeners hear what that process is like cuz it it is a term bandi about and thrown around in a Divorce in in Colorado, I'm gonna get a Forensic Accounting. And they hear that and they just kind of, clients often use it but they don't really understand what it entails or or more importantly, how much is it gonna cost because then I think listeners will then understand the Divorce money guide and the the value that one can get from what you've created.

Tracy Coenen (30m 19s):
Think of a Forensic accountant as an investigator. So I investigate the numbers. In a Divorce case what I do is I focus very heavily on bank statements, credit card statements, investment account statements, loan statements, And I, literally trace the money. So I look at all the transactions, And I look at every dollar and where it's going from one account to another or what it's being spent on ultimately trying to find out if there are improper expenditures or if there's money maybe that's been withdrawn and we don't know what happened to it or transferred to an account that we didn't previously know about. Things like that. So what I do is pretty involved. The typical case, it's, it's pretty common that you would have a retainer of $10,000 to get started with a Forensic accountant.

Tracy Coenen (31m 4s):
I like to say my cases are, my normal cases in the Divorce space are between 10 and $25,000 of fees. I do larger ones as well, but if you wanted the the normal it's about 10 to $25,000.

Ryan Kalamaya (31m 17s):
So, you know, just as an example, I had a case where a landscaper, he was buying his girlfriend, you know, Victoria's Secrets things and running it through the business and that lingerie, I remember on the stand, you know, I asked him about the the uniforms and the kind of normal equipment that he would purchase for his guys and you know, he admitted it, it was for his, you know, girlfriend and, but he was experiencing it through the business. So, but it, it wouldn't make sense to hire someone like you to do a Forensic Accounting to find a hundred dollars in lingerie there or this or that. So what are the circumstances, can you give us some ideas of when it makes sense for to really go into a Forensic Accounting and then what are the kind of the red flags that people would first look at that would be part of the Divorce money guide.

Tracy Coenen (32m 10s):
So it makes more sense to hire a Forensic accountant when there is more money on the line when you think that there is more significant unusual spending. you know, in some cases they already have some evidence of improper spending. In other cases they don't have that evidence and that's exactly why they need me is cuz they have some pretty strong suspicions though. So I would say, you know, it's a balancing act of how much money is on the line, how much you can reasonably guess might be missing because you're not only paying for my fees, you're also paying for the attorney's fees then to pursue the issue of getting this money back

Ryan Kalamaya (32m 46s):
In, going to Divorce money guide. I imagine that you would get calls from, you know, people like me, Divorce attorneys or the Melanie Wolfs of the world that would say I, I don't know, I just don't trust my husband at this point or my wife, you know, and, and often it's gonna involve, you know, some sort of private business or is kind of the most frequent circumstances. But Tracy talk to me about why you created it. Is it because you just got so many calls and it just didn't justify the fees?

Tracy Coenen (33m 21s):
Well that's just, it is, I, I would get people calling me saying I have some suspicions I need some help, but they either couldn't afford my services or they didn't have enough at stake to make it worthwhile for whatever reason. When I tell them 10 to $25,000, of course they're sticker shot there and they say, I've already spent so much on my Divorce And I can't afford another cost. And I got frustrated because I didn't have an option for them. It's disappointing to me to be able to tell someone, okay, I can't help you. And they say, well what do I do next? Well here's a couple articles on the internet that you can go read but that really doesn help them. And so I wanted there to be an option. And I knew that clients were also going to their attorneys and their attorneys were saying, well a Forensic accountant could help but I know you can't afford one.

Tracy Coenen (34m 7s):
And the buck kind of stopped right there. So I said I wanna create something where people have an opportunity to get more information about their financial situation. If I could walk them through very simply what I do, give them some really simple techniques for looking at their bank statements, things to look for, techniques to do that I'd like to say anyone can do, even if you're not a numbers person. I thought if I could put something like that together, it would be a way for me to help literally thousands of people who otherwise would have no help available to them. And so that's how the Divorce Money Guide came to be.

Ryan Kalamaya (34m 42s):
Finally, arguably my favorite conversation on Divorce Altitude was when Andy Heller And I talked about taking the high road and that was an episode one 15. I really appreciated Andy's approach. He's essentially the real life Eric Wolf, our hypothetical Divorce client. and we touched on both parenting and financial issues. And I really felt like that episode and Andy's book Take the High Road Divorce with Compassion for yourself and your family, brought in so many different elements of Divorce and Andy himself has gone through a Divorce.

Ryan Kalamaya (35m 27s):
He's a successful businessman with two real estate books under his belt and his perspective and some of the tips that he shared on, for example, parenting coordinators and why he recommends a co-parenting coach or counselor and the value of therapy for both parents and children. And why the biggest complaint of Divorce A is in the years following Divorce is something that he thought about in writing his book and communicating effectively with your former spouse, especially in adversarial relationships. I mean we really touched on so many different aspects.

Ryan Kalamaya (36m 9s):
So hopefully this next clip gives you an idea of the various things that we talked about. And I encourage you to check out episode one 15, whether you are a Divorce professional or going through a Divorce And I. Don't think it matters whether you are Melanie Wolf or Eric Wolf, you're a male or female or you're kind of on the outside. I think that the episode on taking the high road is worth going back and checking out. So hopefully the next clip picks your interest and you really enjoyed 2022 and thanks for joining us on the Divorce at Altitude in 2022.

Ryan Kalamaya (36m 54s):
And before we kind of get into the book and the various takeaways, so we were talking before recording, so you are in California. I

Andy Heller (37m 3s):

Ryan Kalamaya (37m 3s):
And tell us about why you wrote the book and what's different than some of the other books that may exist out there in the self-help and Divorce landscape.

Andy Heller (37m 15s):
Sure, I'll try and give you my story in two or three minutes to leave more time for questions here, Ryan. So my ex-wife, And I were sitting in front of our co-parent counselor. We had a lot of other things happen that made our Divorce probably a bit more challenging. And she said, you know, both of you can benefit from a therapist I saw, you know, what the heck? Why not? you know, I always considered myself to be a reasonable and compromise oriented businessmen. I've run successful businesses Ryan, but I was dealing with a lot. I had a new business at that time. My marriage was ending. And I said this can't hurt. So I asked specifically for a therapist who had dealt successfully with Divorce men. And I met this lady and she was amazing.

Andy Heller (37m 56s):
And what led me to think about right in this book, so whenever I'm stressed I write notes. So I've been already been writing notes for a year, year and a half. So I start to go in to see her And. I cannot count how many times I would go into her office, something would happen involving my children or my ex-wife. I said, this is what happened. But don't worry, I thought it through. I got a reasonable solution. I would tell her what I plan to do and she would listen to me. if you was very polite, she'd say Thank you, Andy, very reasonable. But you're not gonna do that. You're gonna do the opposite. And I would sit there and listen on how the solution came out of her mouth, which is so opposite to what I intended to do. But up until five minutes earlier, Ryan, what I plan to do seems so sensible, And, I'm like, oh my God.

Andy Heller (38m 40s):
I was so impressed by how many times my instincts were off. That's the first point. The second is that, so when I'm stressed, I also don't sleep a lot. And I run my own business. So you know, I have a lot more autonomy and flexibility than a lot of people. So things would happen and and she would say, Andy, I got a book for you. She'd go to her bookshelf and she'd hand me a book. Andy got a book for you. She go to her bookshelf and hand me another book. And I read these books. Frankly, they're all good. And I'm a big believer Ryan that if you can get one or two good tips out of a two or three hour read, it's worth the 20 bucks for sure. So at this point now, about a year later, I had benefited from her guidance. I'd read countless books.

Andy Heller (39m 20s):
I'm like, you know, there's a gap in the self-help space for Divorce. I did a little research and not a lot of people are gonna have as much time as I did, or they're gonna sleep more than I did. So they need a best practices one-stop shop for getting through a Divorce. The other thing I saw, there's a lot of great books out there written by attorneys and therapists and co-parent counselors. And there need to be a book written very objectively by somebody who's not a professional in the Divorce space about how to get through the process. So I started to interview dozens of attorneys, co-parent counselors, parenting coaches, people who ran Divorce support groups, therapists, family therapists, children therapists.

Andy Heller (40m 3s):
So what you're reading in this book is the best practices of how to get through a divorce process. well, I really my role is really a businessman who takes the counsel of these experts and organizes it. And I'm very objective cuz I'm not an attorney, I'm not a co-parent counselor, I'm not a therapist. And the last point I'll say is that I realize through my own Divorce that Divorce is an experiential journey. So during this journey you're gonna do some things right, some things horribly wrong, and some things that you could have done a lot better. And the problem is you need that council on day one, not day two 50 or 300 or 500, so that you and your ex and your children can all land in a healthier place.

Andy Heller (40m 46s):
So the theme of my book is 46 tips and strategies of issues and events and things that will typically happen to most divorcees. We give them these strategies on the first day with a goal of Landon in a healthy place much easier and faster. Because when these situations arise in your own Divorce, you've already been counseled about how to handle them effectively. And you know, there's a lot of reviews that I've got that are really complimentary, but one of the most powerful reviews is from another author. She ended up writing my forward. She said, my book is the roadmap that every Divorce he needs to get through the Divorce and land in a good place.

Andy Heller (41m 27s):
So that's my story, why I did this. And look, I'm a successful businessman, Ryan, I'd run businesses. This is not my job. I want this book to be successful because I want to try to help a lot of people land in a better place and manage the process easier. This is sort of my give back. It's something I'm passionate about. I think it can help a lot of people and that's why I'm here today as your guest,

Ryan Kalamaya (41m 48s):
As I said in the intro to the last clip. We really do value our listeners and thank you for joining us on this journey. We had some hits and some misses, and we continue to look forward to producing better content and Episodes in 2023. It's been a whirlwind for our guests and for Amy And me. But we really, you know, appreciate you spending the time and learning about some difficult things in in life. As I often tell people, we're not the lawyers that you ever want to call.

Ryan Kalamaya (42m 28s):
And this podcast is probably not the kind of material that people really want to listen to because it brings up some really tough and challenging situations and conversations and topics. But you know, life isn't always pretty. and we wanted to produce this, you know, podcast to help those both in the professional community as well as those going through a Divorce themselves. So hopefully an episode has resonated and helped in some way. And if it has, you know, we'd appreciate you leaving a review.

Ryan Kalamaya (43m 9s):
Those reviews do really help, whether it be on Apple Podcast or Spotify. And you know, again, we look forward to producing new Episodes coming up in 2023. But until then, happy New Year and we look forward to future Episodes on Divorce at Altitude. Hey everyone, this is Ryan again. Thank you for joining us on Divorce at Altitude. if you found our tips, insight, or discussion helpful, please tell a friend about this podcast. For show notes, additional resources or links mentioned on today's episode, visit Divorce at Altitude dot com.

Ryan Kalamaya (43m 50s):
Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen in. Many of our Episodes are also posted on YouTube. You can also find Amy And me at Kalamaya.Law or 970-315-2365. That's K A L A M A Y A.law