Witness Preparation in a Divorce Case with Jessica Brylo | Episode 208

We are Ryan Kalamaya explores the crucial aspect of witness preparation in divorce proceedings. Joined by Jessica Brylo, an expert in litigation and witness preparation, the discussion delves into how emotional management and presentation significantly impact the outcomes of divorce cases, particularly in custody and financial disputes.

Key Highlights:
- Expert Guidance from Jessica Brylo: With her extensive background in both the legal and psychological facets of witness preparation, Jessica offers invaluable insights into managing emotions and crafting a narrative that resonates with judges and evaluators.
- The Importance of Presentation: Learn why the way you present yourself in court goes beyond mere aesthetics—it affects the judge's perception and can influence the final rulings on custody and asset division.
- Strategic Emotional Management: Jessica discusses strategies to reframe one's mindset to alleviate anxiety and anger, which can be detrimental in legal settings. By reshaping the narrative around the facts of the case, clients can present themselves more effectively and authentically.

Discussion Points:
- Dealing with Anger and Resentment: Jessica and Ryan discuss common emotional pitfalls such as anger and how it can skew a party's presentation in court, potentially harming their case.
- First Impressions and Bias: The episode covers how first impressions and biases play a role in judicial decisions, emphasizing the need for proper demeanor and preparation.
- Practical Tips and Techniques: From adjusting the narrative to embracing calmness under pressure, the conversation provides practical advice for anyone facing a courtroom situation in a divorce.

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• Phone: 970.315.2365 
• Email:  info@kalamaya.law 


Connect with Jessica Brylo via her website or email for personalized guidance and support through your divorce proceedings.

Thank you for tuning in. We hope this episode brings clarity and confidence to those enduring the complexities of divorce, ensuring they are well-prepared to face the legal process with the right emotional tools.

What is Divorce at Altitude?

Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha provide tips and recommendations on issues related to divorce, separation, and co-parenting in Colorado. Ryan and Amy are the founding partners of an innovative and ambitious law firm, Kalamaya | Goscha, that pushes the boundaries to discover new frontiers in family law, personal injuries, and criminal defense in Colorado.

To subscribe to Divorce at Altitude, click here and select your favorite podcast player. To subscribe to Kalamaya | Goscha's YouTube channel where many of the episodes will be posted as videos, click here. If you have additional questions or would like to speak to one of our attorneys, give us a call at 970-429-5784 or email us at info@kalamaya.law.

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DISCLAIMER: THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS ON THIS PODCAST IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL ADVICE. CONTACT AN ATTORNEY IN YOUR STATE OR AREA TO OBTAIN LEGAL ADVICE ON ANY OF THESE ISSUES.

Transcript

Ryan Kalamaya: 0:02

Welcome back to another episode of Divorce at Altitude. This is Ryan Kalamaya. This week, we're going to talk about witnesses and witness preparation in a divorce. We are joined by an expert in witness preparation. And let me talk about who that is. So Jessica Brylo, she has both a master's and a JD, which is a Juris Doctor. A lawyer and she's the owner and lead in litigation consultant at Trial Dynamics, which is a national trial consulting firm specializing in plaintiff's cases in the civil arena. She works with attorneys to reframe the story and themes of the case based on her knowledge of human decision making. She is skilled in understanding human behavior and is one of the only litigation consultants in the nation to turn these talents into assisting with family law cases. In other words, she does a lot of work with other people in personal injury and civil cases in terms of consulting on juries and witness preparations, but which there's a lot of people out there in that space, but Jessica. Really is one of a unique people that is an expert in family law cases for witnesses. And we'll talk about that, but she does witness preparation work for clients in a divorce and custody battles with an emphasis on altering emotions that are contributing to problematic behaviors during testimony. So without further ado, Jessica, welcome to Divorce at Altitude.

Jessica Brylo: 1:35

Thank you.

Ryan Kalamaya: 1:37

So let's talk about the way that people come across. And why it matters in a divorce. Why should people care if they're in a divorce, why should they care how they come across?

Jessica Brylo: 1:51

Yeah. So when you're in a divorce case, the person who's making the decision on what happens with your case is the judge. And judges, we like to think maybe are superhuman, but in some ways, maybe they are, but they're still humans. And so the way that they would process information is the same as anybody else. They're the same, they're subject to the same biases that jurors and you and I would be. And they can't control their unconscious. To any better degree than anybody on the street can. When the judge is hearing your case or looking over documents or looking through what the child evaluator says about you, if they're, if you come across in a way that is unlikable or that is not believable, the judge is going to have that as part of the framework of how he views or she views you. And so if you are coming across as, angry or bitter, And that relates to some of the claims in your case that you're alienating the other spouse or things like that. And you're claiming you're not doing those things. The way that you present yourself is going to affect whether the judge believes you on that or not.

Ryan Kalamaya: 2:57

And I think to even take it a step further, that even before you get to a judge, How you present to a parenting evaluator is also the kind of first step. And, a parenting evaluator is also, a human being. And so we've talked in previous episodes about biases. So can you talk a little bit about some of the biases and things that may come into play within custody evaluations?

Jessica Brylo: 3:25

Yeah. So when the, when you have a child that's involved and there's a child evaluator, the judge will sometimes take what they say and run with it because they're considered to be a neutral party. And they often are neutral in the sense that they're not, trying to be biased toward one person or another, but they're also humans. And so when they come in to evaluate you, and your home, and your children, and what type of parent you are if they see a messy house, if they see, That you are talking bad about this your ex, if they see that, the kids aren't well dressed, that there's not food in the fridge, all of those things will contribute to what they think of you as a parent, which will then go into the report. And then it's this, written document that. is now a fact in the case that you would have to now overcome in front of the judge. And so you want to, catch those things before they become a problem and come across well to the evaluator and then in any hearings that happen as well.

Ryan Kalamaya: 4:20

And you mentioned the presentation and ultimately, first impressions matter and we can talk about what those impressions and what the work that you do is. My firm, we have these standard tips that we send to our Clients in, in, in particular in parenting evaluations but just in general, even if there's not a parenting evaluation, an example would be instead of saying my child, you say we, or our child, because if you say my child, it connotes, ownership that you're excluding the other party. And that's just one of those little. Tips or little things changing someone's perspective that is, is just an example of how you say things and how you view things can ultimately matter. Can you think of any others that are commonly associated with Divorce and Witnesses.

Jessica Brylo: 5:15

On, on that point, I'll get back to that in one second, but Matt, when you say, not to say a certain thing, that's the tricky part, right? Because people say things because they feel a certain way. And so it's hard for them to remember to say our child or we do things together when that's not how they feel. That means they have to be always conscious of exactly the words that are coming out of their mouths. Whereas if you get them to feel a different way. then it naturally comes out, right? So not that you have to get them to love their ex, so that's not necessarily going to happen, but the way that you can re the degree that you can reframe somebody in terms of how they think about their situation then you don't have to do that work, right? Because it just comes naturally to them. Other examples, I think, not necessarily words per se, but, I think there's a lot of people who come across anxious, talk a lot, don't stay on topic, they want to over explain themselves. And, that, that comes across, and it seems like they're either hiding something because they're talking so much, or they're talking in circles, and what are they really getting at, or this isn't a good parent because they're so anxious over things, and I think those are emotions that are true. Understandable. They're just not helpful to winning your case.

Ryan Kalamaya: 6:30

So as long time listeners know, we have our hypothetical divorce client Eric Wolf, and he's going through a divorce with Melanie. And let's just say, Jessica, that Eric that he is really angry. That's a anger is a common. Emotion for people going through a divorce, because let's just say that Melanie cheated on him and he, as frequently we'll, I, in my world, we'll say, I want the judge to hear about this affair and what he has done to our family. What is the negative doubt? What's the downside to Eric going into a. Parenting evaluation or ultimately to the judge in telling his story and just really getting to the quote unquote truth

Jessica Brylo: 7:15

Yeah, so part of the issue is that you know in the court of law truth is relative, right? So there are truths but there's you know What I call in the jury world juror proof and then there's real proof And so what matters is what the judge or the fact finder thinks about your case And sometimes The facts that you think are important aren't important to the actual decision that needs to be made. And so we have to focus on what is going to be helpful to you winning the case, not to necessarily telling the story that you want to tell. Those are two different things. And the affair may not be relevant to deciding who gets the kids. And so as hard as it is to leave that out, that's not something that is going to help you to bring up when you're talking about your divorce. And bad mouthing the other parent makes it seem like you're going to be doing that in front of the kids when you have your time with the children and that you're going to be alienating the kids from your spouse. So if instead you go in and you say, listen, we've had our marital issues, that's between the two of us, we are co parents and we plan on being fair with the kids and not putting them in the middle and this is for something for me to handle, not something for them to handle. That's a really confident, calm parent. That the judge can get behind, so working through other issues like a, who's at fault for the divorce is something that has to be done outside of the courtroom sometimes, because if it's not relevant, it's not helpful.

Ryan Kalamaya: 8:42

And I think that one of the consequences, so if Eric goes, takes a witness stand, tells the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, there are promises there. To and then, goes and launches into this diatribe on, the affair and Melanie and everything. What if the case is really centered on, for example, like financial issues about the value of a business or there might be some other issue related to parenting that, is it fair to say that the judge His is viewing Eric through this lens and because he is just blabbering on about the anger that he has on the affair, that spills over to the credibility that Eric may or may not have when it comes to the value of the business or what some issue would be related to parenting.

Jessica Brylo: 9:35

Yeah. So people don't digest information in boxes, so you can't say he's angry about this issue and we're going to leave it on that issue. That becomes who you are. And so that's going to spill over into deciding any other issue that comes up.

Ryan Kalamaya: 9:50

Okay. So Eric, what is, what does that look like where I call you up, Jessica, as I have before and said, Hey, I've got a client that is really anger angry. I don't I'm not a mental health professional, but I deal with it. I'm, I'm a counselor, I'm a counselor at Lodge, as a a graduate of law school. So what, how does, how does that process work with you, Jessica? What are the things that you do to help Eric come across? Cause ultimately he's going to say, I understand that I want the most money or I want the most parenting that I can out of the divorce. So what are the things that he's going to do to present better at trial? What's witness preparation? What does that look like?

Jessica Brylo: 10:32

Yeah. First we talk about what the goal is. And so the goal is not the same as normal witness prep. I'm not trying to focus on where you should look and who you should talk to the judge and when you shouldn't and what words you should or shouldn't say necessarily. Although toward the end, we may do some of that. But, my focus is on changing the internal emotional state that Eric would be feeling. By changing how he feels about the circumstances. There's facts in the case, and I can't change the facts. Nobody can change what the facts are. But what we can change is the story that you tell yourself about the facts. And that story affects how you come across when you're testifying, or when you're in front of a child evaluator, or any of those things. And if we can change and alter the story, that will change your internal emotional state, which will then change how you come across when you testify. Where we started, it seems we're just having chit chat, where I'll take an hour or two and ask about, the history of the marriage, if we have time, go back further into childhood. Where did you learn your value about money? What does money mean to you? What is your parents relationship like? And talk through that. I'm not a mental health counselor either, although I, my father was one. So I guess I grew up being analyzed, but I don't have any degrees in doing that. So I'm, my, my purpose is not to create long term change changes for somebody. They need somebody else to do that. But I'm just searching for the points of contention, like the parts that are making them feel that way. Okay. is what I'm looking for. If it's somebody who has never been by themselves, they went from being, in their parents house to then being married to having kids, and now all of a sudden that falls apart, that triggers me to think, okay, Maybe some of this anxiety or anger is over the fact that you don't really know how to be, an independent person at this point. And so by going through the story, I started to find where those emotional triggers are. And then we talk through the emotional triggers a little bit. And as usually when you bring it up, people are shocked a little bit like, Oh, you're right. That does make sense. And so by, by Finding what those triggers are, and then being able to reframe them in a way that makes it so that they can understand that this isn't necessarily the same way that they're thinking about it, that there's another possibility of how I can think about this information. For example, Almost everybody in a lawsuit, especially in a family divorce lawsuit, feels like I shouldn't be in a lawsuit. This isn't fair to me. I shouldn't have to go through this. This is not what I signed up for. And while all that is, fair emotions to have, you can think about it a different way. I had one client from a different country, like Somalia, and he So thank God I get to be in a lawsuit because there isn't this option in my country. It's an eye for an eye. If if you cheat on your wife, then they're going to come and do something else to you that's the equivalent. And so there's no, there's no sorting it out in any civilized manner. And this is great. And so when you think about it that way, it's Oh, you're right. I guess the alternative is a lot worse. Like it's great that we do have this system to work it out and that can take the edge off. So now you don't feel so uptight and angry about being in the lawsuit. So we can do the same thing with the facts of the case and your circumstances and story of the case and reframe those things one at a time. And that will take away some of that anxiety, that anger, those emotional trigger points. Go ahead.

Ryan Kalamaya: 13:38

So Eric, in, in that circumstance, he might be anxious about the legal process and just testify. And I see that all the time where if it's a deposition or a trial or a parenting evaluation, just the uncertainty, they've never been through it before that anxiety might cause them to say or do things and you help them in that circumstance, which is different than like being angry, but just really getting into. What are the emotional triggers for them that is causing a concern?

Jessica Brylo: 14:12

Yeah. I had one client who, was coming across as if she was alienating and she was overprotective of her daughter. Didn't want, when she was at the father's house, didn't want them to hire a babysitter for her if they were going out. And, it's comes across as everybody hires a sitter. Why won't you let him hire somebody? And as we talked through her story, she glazed past a time when she went in with a friend into the woods. And what happened in the woods was some older man was there and ended up assaulting both of them sexually. And so she has this fear now of strangers. And she, so we talked about it and she said, she, she cried through it. And I said, you're going to have to tell this story. Because it makes sense now why you don't want your daughter left. This isn't you just trying to make it hard on your ex. And she said, yeah, I don't mind if it's somebody that I know or that I can talk to a few times and get to know them, but I just can't leave her with somebody I've never talked to or met and have no trust. And all of a sudden that sounds reasonable, but you have to get to the story in order to,

Ryan Kalamaya: 15:11

And yeah, figuring out what parts of the backstory are relevant and then other parts where it's this is not going to be helpful. And I think that is a real it's a, it's an art because it is. It frequently people will tell me things and I'll say, listen I understand that's important to you. But it, from a legal perspective, it's not, but on the flip side, I've also had clients where they tell me something for the first time and it's like either after the fact, or I'm like, why didn't you tell me that beforehand? That is crazy. And I think people it's easy for us or for divorce lawyers to be, just, we're in the system. We, we know what is and is not important, or at least we think we do, but these people are going through the legal process and their divorce, and it's often the first and only. Experience that they have with the legal system. So they don't know what is or is not relevant. That's what they're looking for. And that's something that I think you work with and, you and I have worked on that in the past. And at least in, I, there was an example where. You got to my client's childhood anxiety over money in that was a real trigger And so you developed a series of truths as you describe them And so can you tell our listeners what is like what's a truth for someone or the safety islands as it were in testimony

Jessica Brylo: 16:39

Yeah, so one of the things that people get really anxious over is the fact that there's always something they're going to come after you about, right? So there's always bad facts in your case. And the anxiety is, how do I explain this? What do I say about it? How am I supposed to say it and still win my case? And so we talk about what those things are. What are the worst facts that they're going to come after you with? And let's make a list of them and then tell me why those aren't true. What makes it not true? And so we have to just create a list of maybe five to seven maximum that encompass the whole case. And that way anytime they come after you for something, you can revert back to that list. And so the, now the testimony gets very clear. It's they can't get you off topic, they can't lure you into something. It's, the answer is one of these five to seven things. If, let's say you did drugs in the past and they're using that against you, you can say, listen, I did that. It's a time in my life I'm not proud of, but I've done away with that and I have, I've been clean for X number of years and I'm now a great parent. And just being able to own those things up front because you know what the truth about them is and how to explain it. Then it cuts off whatever they can come at you with.

Ryan Kalamaya: 17:47

And I think at least from my observation, it's helpful for a client that they don't know, they know something's going to come up on that particular issue. And we can prepare, everyone, all my clients are like what are they going to ask in a deposition or a trial? And it's one of those things where we can predict and we know that there's going to be something. And we can, yeah, like you're right. Thank you. The five to seven, things. And, but then however it comes up, it could be, at a side angle or directly on, then they have an answer that they have prepared in advance and they know is going to work and that they can, whatever issue on drugs, they could come back. To that answer, no matter how anxious or nervous or whatever it is. They don't know exactly how to answer it. But they can revert back to that, which is responsive and it's a safe Island for them.

Jessica Brylo: 18:43

Exactly. Yep. And people, they just exhale when they have that. Because it just takes a lot of stress and uncertainty out of the picture for them.

Ryan Kalamaya: 18:51

Okay, so that's working directly with witnesses directly the parties. And Jessica, how does that work for you? Do you work directly with the client, the person going through the divorce and what does that look like?

Jessica Brylo: 19:05

Yeah, I work directly with them. I usually have the attorneys involved as well, in part just for confidentiality and privilege purposes. But also because I think it's helpful for the attorney to see what comes out of it. Sometimes facts are revealed that you didn't know, and I don't know what you do or don't know, so I don't know what to relay back. And so when the attorney is in on the call, it helps them to prepare on their end as well. And then at some point we get into sort of a mock cross exam, and I definitely need the attorney involved for that. And that's when we figure out those truths and work on those, and how you answer the questions. For and so usually it's a team effort.

Ryan Kalamaya: 19:38

Okay. So let's talk about more about that team and the divorce attorney and like you, I know just from experience, you also craft and work with a divorce attorney about how their approach may or may not change in a particular case, based on the facts and issues involved.

Jessica Brylo: 19:58

Yeah, in the civil arena, I do a lot of work, mostly all with the attorneys. And so we can work on how to frame the case, just in general, what do you want to focus on? What things should come up first? How should this information be presented? And so we can work on that as well. And the attorney is part of this whole, all of court is a play, right? And the attorney is one of those players and they have a role in it too. And for example, if you have a client on the stand and they're getting attacked by the by the opposing counsel, your inclination is to jump in and save that client. That may not do the good that you think it's going to do because, human nature is to try to balance scales and make things even. And if somebody is being attacked on the street, but there's other people who are already assisting, you can step back and say, that's taken care of. If nobody is stepping up, then you feel more of a pull to come in and do something about it. It's the same in court. If your client is being attacked, and you leave it alone, then the judge's inclination is to say, that attorney is being really unfair to him or to her. And so I now have to step in and make that fair. And the way they do that is through their rulings. And so you want the judge to feel like they have to step in to save you. But if your attorney steps in, or if the attorney decides to step in on their own, then you're ruining the case. Because you've now you've, Taking care of the bully and you fixed it. So you don't really want to be in that role.

Ryan Kalamaya: 21:19

Yeah. One of the, I remember going to a trial advocacy program for divorce lawyers and there was a divorce lawyer from Monterey California. And he said his observation, which I think is was fantastic was that there's only so much anger that can exist in a courtroom and that you want it. That anger to reside with the judge, where if you stand up and you're angry and saying, my client has been attacked or unjustly accused or whatever the case may be that then the judge then has to balance that out. Whereas if you're very calm and, he may get. You want ultimately the judge to be angry, where he feels like the other side or the other party is doing something wrong and he feels he or she feels obligated to write that wrong. They, if the attorney. Does it for their client, then it takes the wind out of the sails when it comes to that judicial opinion, which is, if you're at that point, you, that's what you want you're looking for a favorable opinion,

Jessica Brylo: 22:28

right? Yeah. And anger is such a powerful emotion. That's what motivates people. So you know, you want the judge to be angry on your behalf, which also means you can't be the attorney who gets up and. You want to be the neutral purveyor of information and you want your clients to do the same thing to just sit calmly if they're being attacked and not respond to that. Don't escalate with it, because every time you want If you can think in your head, every time they attack me, it's good for me, then it makes it easier to sit back and just be very calm and neutral.

Ryan Kalamaya: 23:00

And I know from experience, I tend to get emotional. People like the passion, my clients, I think, appreciate me caring. Sometimes I care probably too much to the detriment of kind of my body. My personal mental health, and, but on my witness outlines, I put at the top of every, be calm because that's my tendency is to get, too emotional. So it's a reminder to, to be calm. And it's something internally within our firm we talk about or think about is the optics. So if there is this. Eric Wolf, hyperaggressive type A guy going through a divorce. Is it better to have a female attorney who is a little bit more reserved because Georgina Melby in our firm that or Amy, we all have our different styles. And so we let it be. Think about how is this going to come across or there might be a witness, an expert witness that is more appropriate for me to cross examine or to really take the lead on. And, I think I'd be curious what your thoughts are on whether or not that those optics matter, or if it's just, like something that lawyers do and they think that they're really making a difference in the case.

Jessica Brylo: 24:15

No, I think it does matter. I think, all that's unconscious stuff that the judge isn't going to look at it and think in his head, this is what matters. It's just how it comes across on an unconscious level. Do I think it's case determinant? No, but I think that it does help when you can balance that out. You might be better fit for a client who is a little bit meeker and, Not quite as good at standing up for themselves. Not that you would then stand up for them, but it would balance their personality with yours, to give somebody strong behind them, but, a calm strength behind them. And so I think, that makes a difference.

Ryan Kalamaya: 24:48

No I I appreciate that insight and for, people going through divorce, what are they? What are the, the kind of most common pitfalls that you see in divorce parties going through a divorce in terms of emotional and how they present at trial?

Jessica Brylo: 25:06

I think I see a lot of just anger, wanting to get back at the other party and and just tell too much information. That they just want to get the anger out and it's not helpful. They think it is because they think they're telling their story. But the way in which they do it and the circumstances of the court case just don't make it helpful, unfortunately. It's like they, they need that outlet and court isn't the outlet for it.

Ryan Kalamaya: 25:32

And I think it's helpful for divorce lawyers to also, consider using someone like you, Jessica, because, within our firm, We get in the weeds. I was on a call yesterday with a judge and an expert witness because we were talking about a presentation that we're about to give and the judge made the observation. He's you divorce lawyers, you guys tend to get in the weeds and the experts because we have been in this case oftentimes for a year. And so we what we think is important. And I think Having someone like you come in, hear the presentation and think about the narrative and the story, because we think of stories and generally I, in my experience, whatever side tells the most clear, consistent story generally wins. And so to bounce that storyline. Off of you and then have you work with the lawyer as well as the witness to make sure that the testimony, those truths, everything is going towards that narrative and to really make sure that narrative is compelling and is a winner,

Jessica Brylo: 26:41

right? Yeah. And in the civil arena, it's even worse, right? Because the attorneys have been working on the case for sometimes five years. 10 years. And so they can't see. Past their nose in terms of what the case is actually about and it's understandable. You can't play all roles. You just, you can't you do need somebody to come in. Who's an outsider who can say you're completely off track. Here's where you really need to focus. This is the main part of the case. This is the most compelling part of the case. These other things need to take a backseat or here's how we explain this as opposed to the way that you're trying to, run circles around it. It can be really helpful.

Ryan Kalamaya: 27:16

And we'll have links to your info in the show notes, but for those that are interested in finding out more Jessica where's the best place for them to reach out and get in touch with you?

Jessica Brylo: 27:27

Yeah, I think a couple of ways. One is my email, which is Jessica at trial, D-T-R-I-A-L, dynamics, D-Y-N-A-M-I-C s.net. That's my email. My website is trial dynamics.net. And you can look on there. A lot of that is geared toward the civil world, but there is a thing about family law on there. And I also have a free printable handout for attorneys to give to their clients or for clients to take before a child evaluation to just help a checklist to prepare. So you're welcome to email me. for a copy of that as well.

Ryan Kalamaya: 28:03

I know from experience that you, for a particular kind of case it really helps when either when, if kids are involved or if there's, if we're talking about a fair amount of money that, you want to have every advantage that is available to you. And so one of those things certainly is the witness preparation and making sure that you've done everything. In such a critical chapter of someone's life to make sure that all the tools are used and, the more arrows that a trial lawyer has in their quiver, the better they are to really achieve a result that is, is beneficial to their client. Cause it's often the most important, aspect of their life at that time.

Jessica Brylo: 28:47

Yeah, especially when kids are involved, it's something that you really can't afford to mess up. And it's, my work isn't, long term, tons of hours kind of work. Usually it's a few hours here and there, and it can really make a difference.

Ryan Kalamaya: 29:00

Absolutely. And for you, I think the key is that you can temporarily help someone shift. If I think that, the longer term aspect is something that is for like therapy and counseling, oftentimes people come to me and Where they'll two years out, three years out, they'll say, Ryan, thank you so much for being there. I was in a really bad state. And so for you, it's recognizing that then getting them back to a better place temporarily so that they can, move on with their life. But really the important aspect is how they present at a given hearing or during an evaluation or a deposition.

Jessica Brylo: 29:42

Yeah, and some of the things that we do together may stick, and I would love, if that happens, to help people in the long term but, I, I don't market that, that's going to happen. My goal is to help you sustain whatever we think we talk about for, a couple of days before whatever comes up just to keep it in your mind, so to help you get over this part of your life. And then. There are therapists and divorce coaches who can take it further and really get your life back. But I want to make sure that you don't lose your case.

Ryan Kalamaya: 30:09

Jessica appreciate the time. Look forward to working with you in the future. And for those listening that are interested whether they be divorce lawyers or people going through divorce and they're concerned about just their presentation or wouldn't give themselves the best opportunity at. Feel free to reach out to Jessica and thanks again for listening to Divorce at Altitude.

Jessica Brylo: 30:30

Thanks Ryan. I appreciate it. All.

Ryan Kalamaya: 30:32

hey everyone. This is Ryan again. Thank you for joining us on Divorce at Altittude. If you found our tips, insight, or discussion helpful, please tell a friend about this podcast. For show notes, additional resources or links mentioned on today's episode, visit Divorce at Altittude dot com. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen in. Many of our episodes are also posted on YouTube. You can also find Amy and. Law or 9 7 0 3 1 5 2 3 6 5. That's aaa.