Laura Koupal founded Koupal Law Firm, P.C. in 2012 and has represented over one thousand clients in assisted reproductive technology matters, complex divorce litigation, non-traditional and LGBTQ+ family formation and dissolution, adoption and estate planning matters.
Laura helped to draft and successfully lobby the passage of Colorado Surrogacy Act signed by Governor Polis on May 6, 2021. Outside of work, she enjoys spending time in the Colorado outdoors camping and skiing with her husband, Chris and their three children- Charlie (15), Josie (13) and Sam (10).
What is Divorce at Altitude?
Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha provide tips and recommendations on issues related to divorce, separation, and co-parenting in Colorado. Ryan and Amy are the founding partners of an innovative and ambitious law firm, Kalamaya | Goscha, that pushes the boundaries to discover new frontiers in family law, personal injuries, and criminal defense in Colorado.
To subscribe to Divorce at Altitude, click here and select your favorite podcast player. To subscribe to Kalamaya | Goscha's YouTube channel where many of the episodes will be posted as videos, click here. If you have additional questions or would like to speak to one of our attorneys, give us a call at 970-429-5784 or email us at [email protected].
DISCLAIMER: THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS ON THIS PODCAST IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL ADVICE. CONTACT AN ATTORNEY IN YOUR STATE OR AREA TO OBTAIN LEGAL ADVICE ON ANY OF THESE ISSUES.
Ryan Kalamaya (3s):
Hey everyone. I'm Ryan Kalamaya and I am Amy. Gosha Welcome to the divorce at altitude, a podcast on Colorado family law. Divorce is not easy. It really sucks. Trust me. I know besides being an experienced divorce attorney, I'm also a divorce case client. Whether you are someone considering divorce or a fellow family law attorney listening for weekly tips and insight into topics related to divorce co-parenting and separation in Colorado.
Amy Goscha (37s):
Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode at divorce at altitude today I have with me a colleague and friend Laura Koupal. How are you doing Laura?
Laura Koupal (46s):
Good. Thanks for having me, Amy.
Amy Goscha (47s):
Yeah. You got a funny story about Laura and I, we used to work together back in the day. I was a young associate when she was a senior associate. So, you know, since that time, Laura, where has your practice taken you?
Laura Koupal (60s):
So I am now a solo practitioner and my law firm is Koupal law firm. And I specialize in the area of fertility law, which is a subsection of family law. And so my practice is solely focused on representing surrogates intended parents, eight donors, sperm, donors. And then I do a little bit of familial adoption. So like a step-parent or second parent adoption.
Amy Goscha (1m 25s):
Wow. That's a really interesting area too. I'm sure you really liked doing that.
Laura Koupal (1m 29s):
Yeah, I love it. It's been a great fit. We have clients from the United States and all over the world that come to Colorado to do fertility treatments and Colorado is kind of a well known fertility hub because we have the Colorado center for reproductive medicine, the university of Colorado conceptions, some really well known fertility clinics here in Colorado. And so it's great to be able to connect with people kind of from all over to do this type of up.
Amy Goscha (1m 58s):
I have friends who have dealt with that and you probably meet really interesting clients and your work can really help people grow their families. So that's really cool. Well, where do you want to start? Do you want to start with telling us what is surrogacy? And what's the history of surrogacy in Colorado?
Laura Koupal (2m 13s):
Sure. There's two types of surrogacy. There's genetic surrogacy, where a woman uses her own egg and gets pregnant through intimidation through someone's sperm. That's not, her has been her partner and they reached an agreement. The parties donating this firm, or aren't donating the sperm. Yeah, that's totally fine. You can start over. Okay. So a genetic surrogate is someone who uses her own egg and sperm from someone else to become pregnant through intimidation or artificial or assisted reproduction. That's not sexual intercourse. And then the other type of surrogacy is gestational surrogacy, where a person uses the intended parents, egg and sperm to become pregnant with a child that's not genetically related to her at all.
Laura Koupal (3m 1s):
And she carries the resulting child for those intended parents. Yeah.
Amy Goscha (3m 5s):
Before we kind of get into various in the history of Colorado, are there any other, I guess, terms that we need to discuss what they mean? Like the definition that would be important?
Laura Koupal (3m 15s):
So the work that we do always involves assisted reproduction. So assisted reproduction is a method of causing pregnancy through means by other than sexual intercourse and then surrogacy. Well, there's two types of surrogacy. There's the genetic surrogate. Who's an individual, who's not an intended parent and who agrees to become pregnant through assisted reproduction using their own donated gametes. So their own egg is used. So that's a genetic surrogate. And then it, gestational surrogate is an individual who's not an into parent and who agrees to become pregnant through assisted reproduction, using gametes that are not their own. So those gametes would be either this from, from the intimate Perez, an egg from an intended parent or an embryo that was donated to those intended parents.
Amy Goscha (4m 0s):
The thing I'm just thinking about is how did Colorado become such a hub for fertility?
Laura Koupal (4m 5s):
So Colorado just has well-renowned fertility clinics and so those fertility clinics include the Colorado center for reproductive medicine and laundry. The university of Colorado and conceptions are three of the biggest fertility clinics that we have here in Colorado about how service he kind of evolved because there was a fertility clinics here. Was that part of, yeah, it surrogacy became more popular in the last, I would say 20 or so years because the fertility clinics were getting really high success rates on IVF treatments. And once those IVF treatments became successful above 85% of the time, people were more inclined to start considering using a surrogate to help them start their.
Amy Goscha (4m 50s):
So I guess what else is important with kind of the history of surrogacy in Colorado?
Laura Koupal (4m 56s):
Surrogacy has happened in Colorado for a long time. And we were using existing parentage laws to establish the parental rights for intended parents and breeding contracts between the surrogates and the intended parents, including contracts that were altruistic or the surrogate wasn't being compensated or compensated surrogacy agreements. And this was working out really well. And we were able to establish the intended parents, parental rights to the court system. But as we know, bad facts can create bad laws. And so we worked the last three years to establish a statutory framework that clients can rely on and we passed that statute and may of this year.
Laura Koupal (5m 43s):
So, yeah, so it's a brand new statute. This statute is in title 19 and it's 19 4.5101 in the statutes called the Colorado surrogacy agreement act. And so that's a great piece of, for both the intended parents and the surrogates, because it protects the surrogates and that they don't have any financial responsibility or any other responsibility for the child. And it allows them to bring a claim under the act in the event that there was a dispute. It also protects the intended parents because it clearly establishes their parental rights and responsibilities for the child. It allows their names to go on their child's birth certificate. It provides a framework for them also to provide compensation to the surrogate when appropriate.
Laura Koupal (6m 28s):
And it provides protection for the resulting child because the child then has clear legal framework that they're the child of the intended parents. And then it allows their parents to get social security cards for them, passports, whatever they might need to fully secure the rights it's Colorado city,
Amy Goscha (6m 46s):
as far as other states, like do other states have a similar statutory framework or is Colorado kind of leading in this?
Laura Koupal (6m 53s):
So every state has their own surrogacy laws. And the majority of the states are states like Colorado used to be. So the majority of the states are states where the state doesn't permit or prevent surrogacy that there are 11 states, including Colorado that has specific surrogacy laws. I think ours is one of the most comprehensive surrogacy laws out there. Our statute contemplates both the genetic surrogacy and the gestational surrogacy piece of it. So I think that's one of the things that really sets our state apart. This statute's interesting in that it really just codifies the practice that we were doing before, and it doesn't create more sort of barriers to entry.
Laura Koupal (7m 35s):
So it's really just, like I said, kind of codifying what we were already doing. It does have a few kind of requirements. Do you want me to go through those? So the surrogate and the antenna parents have to be over the age of 21. The surrogate needs to complete medical evaluation and a mental health consultation. The surrogacy agreement needs to be written out and both parties have to be represented by individual attorneys that are licensed in the state of Colorado.
Amy Goscha (8m 2s):
Is there anything that was different about being represented by synced attorneys in the state of Colorado? Has that always been that hasn't always been the case.
Laura Koupal (8m 11s):
So typically best practice was considered to be that at least one attorney should be licensed in the state where the contract was governed under. So we would have instances where the surrogate would be represented by Colorado council and the intended parents may be represented by an attorney in a different state. So that would be considered a new practice, but historically best practice has been that at least one person is represented by Colorado council. And part of the reason for that is when we established the intended parents from a rights through the district court, obviously you have to have a license in Colorado to do that. So, I mean, that's part of the rationale for it.
Amy Goscha (8m 51s):
Someone comes into your office. Can you just explain like how long the process takes? I know it depends on what they're doing, but if it's like surrogacy type case, like what are the steps? How long does it take? You could just walk us through what that means.
Laura Koupal (9m 4s):
Sure. So the majority of plans are matched through imagine agency and when clients are matched through a matching agency, they've usually done a lot of the, kind of the leg work. So they've met each other. They've agreed to certain compensation terms a lot of times, but not all the time.
Amy Goscha (9m 20s):
The surrogate's already completed her medical evaluation and her mental health evaluation. So from that standpoint, they kind of present to us as attorneys is as ready to go. And so we draft their contracts at that point. Typically the intended parents attorney drafts the contract. So I would draft the contract for intended parents. I'd set up a time with them to go over the contract, make sure that we've included all of the terms that they want, either from a personal standpoint or from an agency standpoint, like a fee agreement that they've already agreed to. And once that contract looks good from our standpoint, as the intended parents, then we send it over to the surrogate's attorney and then the surrogate's attorney then reviews it with the surrogate.
Laura Koupal (10m 1s):
They kind of do the same thing, make sure that the surrogate understands all of the terms of the surrogacy agreement, make sure that there's not anything in there that was missing or that she wants to include. They send it back to us for negotiation. It's not a litigious process. It's obviously people who are entering into a very intimate agreement. So it's kind of a collaborative process, but once the agreement kind of looks the way all of the parties want it to, then they execute it. That process typically takes about a month. By the time you kind of get on everybody's calendars and go through it. And then the attorney for the intended parents issues, what's called the legal clearance letter to the fertility clinics. And then the fertility clinics, we'll start with a medication cycle and the transfer date from there, the lawyers don't really do anything until the surrogate's about 15 to 18 weeks pregnant.
Laura Koupal (10m 51s):
And at that point, we file a petition for determination of parental rights with the district court. And that process allows the magistrate or the judge to issue an order that says that the surrogate and her partner are not the parents, the intended parent or parents are the parents and that the intended parents names should go directly on their child's birth certificate. And so that order is really helpful for a couple of reasons. One, the intended parents are able to take that order to the hospital when their child's born and the hospital will ban the child with their names, they'll use their health insurance for their child, and they're able to make medical decisions for their child, discharged their child, things like that. And then secondarily, that order then goes to the department of vital records and vital records will issue their birth certificate.
Amy Goscha (11m 37s):
Yeah. Thank you for going through that. And I kind of remember working with you that sometimes there would be a medical power of attorney, like for the unborn child. I don't know if that's exactly what it was called, but can't, is there sometimes like those directives, like, do you get involved with what happens at the Syria at something happens during the birthing process? Can I get kind of complicated?
Laura Koupal (11m 57s):
Sure. We do typically recommend that the surrogate issue, some of those directives and samples would be like a living will and medical power of attorney for the unborn child, where she would list the intended parents is the agent and then a medical power of attorney for herself where she would list her own agent, typically a spouse or family member. Fortunately, in my practice, we haven't had to use those documents, but, you know, I think that that would probably consider to be best practice to have those on hand in the event, we needed something like that.
Ryan Kalamaya (12m 29s):
This episode is brought to you by our law firm. Kalamega Gosha Amy and I describe our law firm as an innovative and ambitious trial team that pushes the boundaries to discover new frontiers in family law, personal injuries in criminal defense in Colorado. We currently have offices in Aspen, Glenwood Springs, Edwards, Denver, and Boulder. If you want to find out more, visit our website, kalamaya.law. Now back to the show.
Amy Goscha (12m 59s):
Yeah. Have you seen in any of your cases over the years, were there issues with like the parties that were fight over the terms of the contract? Like has anything ever had to go to arbitration or anything like that?
Laura Koupal (13m 10s):
Thankfully in my practice, no, I haven't experienced that. When clients go through the process and jump through the hoops and the way that it's sort of intended or what would be considered best practice, there tends not to be a lot of problems. So best practice would be considered to make sure that their surrogates fully vetted. So whether they use an agency to do that, or they do it on their own, they're going to want to make sure that their surrogates is previously given birth to a child, that she has a reliable background. You would do a background check to make sure that there's not criminal history, that she hasn't filed bankruptcy in the last five years. You would want to make sure that the parties have met each other.
Laura Koupal (13m 51s):
And again, that the surrogates undergone the medical and the mental health evaluation to be a suitable candidate. And then from there, you want to make sure that they have reputable, experienced attorneys that they're using a reputable fertility clinic. So for the most part, when the clients sort of check all of those boxes, they really have successful outcomes.
Amy Goscha (14m 13s):
Yeah, no, that's interesting. One other question I had is does the surrogate, she under her own insurance child is under the intended parents' insurance.
Laura Koupal (14m 23s):
Yeah, that's right. So that's another thing that the intended parents would want to consider. And they would look to see if the surrogate's insurance would cover her medical bills pre and post delivery. If she's acting as a compensated surrogate. So there's options. If she doesn't have insurance or if her insurance doesn't cover, then the intended parents can purchase a health insurance plan for her.
Amy Goscha (14m 48s):
Do you feel a lot of clients who might have like a family member serve as a surrogate?
Laura Koupal (14m 52s):
Yes. That definitely happens in those matches can be altruistic. So uncompensated if they want, or they can be compensated, you know, depending on what the needs of the parties are, but you can draft an agreement or you can reach an agreement that really says anything in terms of compensation, just so long as the parties agree. But even if it's your friends, sister, cousin, coworker, you still need to have a surrogacy agreement and both parties still need to be represented because there's things that you maybe haven't thought of. And that sometimes it's hard to have some of those conversations about things you may or may not be worried about or need. And so will yours can kind of help you have your own voice and making sure that you're all comfortable with the agreement.
Amy Goscha (15m 36s):
Yeah. And I think it's important not only for clients, but family law attorneys to understand kind of your nuanced areas. Is there anything else regarding the Colorado surrogacy agreement act that you think it would be interesting or important for family law attorneys or other clients to know about?
Laura Koupal (15m 52s):
I think that from a family law attorney perspective, it's just important to understand that the intended parents really are the parents of the child. It's not an adoption and it's different on a number of different levels. So just kind of to understand what surrogacy is, I think could be helpful if your client has children through surrogacy. And then I think another important part is to remember that a lot of these families have embryos that are cryo-preserved and stored, and those embryos there's case law that we have in Colorado, dealing with those and re the marriage of rocks was the most recent case by just talking about the fact that embryos are special property and that they really do need to be addressed in a separation agreement.
Amy Goscha (16m 38s):
So that I think it's always important to ask parents if they have a preserved embryos and kind of take that into consideration entire divorce process. Is this something that you kind of forget about it? So it's almost, we've considered putting something like that on the intake form. Just something to check the box, kind of like how you would, if you have a state planning, it's easy to forget about something like that. I guess if you're a family law attorney and you know that there was a surrogacy or the parties are going through a divorce and there's serious, they going in the middle of it, what type of discovery would you need to ask for? Like, what exactly is the contract called? Like, would you need to subpoena documents from the fertility clinic? What would be helpful?
Amy Goscha (17m 18s):
Do you think from a family of lawyers perspective to get as far as discovery?
Laura Koupal (17m 22s):
So the Colorado surrogacy agreement act actually addresses the issue of what would happen if the price were to get divorced while the surrogate's pregnant. And so that's under title 19 4.5107, and it says effective subsequent change in marital status. So if either the surrogate were to get divorced or the intended parents for, to get divorced in the middle of the surrogacy, that would be the while the surrogate's pregnant, the parties need to understand that they still need to move forward under the terms of the agreement. So the agreement is typically called really just a surrogacy agreement. And that's the director agreement between the parties. So the direct agreement between the intended parents and the surrogate and her spouse, if she's married.
Laura Koupal (18m 4s):
And so you could ask for that agreement, but really, I think just to understand that a change in marital status doesn't change someone's obligations under their agreement. So just because you're getting divorced, let's say you used donor sperm intended mother's egg and entered into a surrogacy agreement. The surrogate's pregnant, the intended father, can't say, oh, nevermind, I don't want this child anymore. I'm not even genetically related to the child because of his intent to parent the child, create the embryos and use the surrogate. He would still be considered financially responsible for the child under the law.
Amy Goscha (18m 42s):
Okay. And then let's just talk about, you had mentioned entering marriage of Rux as being a very recent case in Colorado. Can you just explain what happened in that case briefly? Like how it changed or clarified the law?
Laura Koupal (18m 54s):
I don't even know. It's really early Amy. Yeah. So they had four kids, I think. And yeah, didn't it define what's property because there is that like pull between like whose property it is and the contract versus genetic material, or is that just not what the case does? Well, basically I think the case dealt with what happens if you have an agreement through like on a consent form and the consent form then says kind of just kicks it back. So while the court of law has to decide, or the parties have to decide, and then how to, and then the Rux case kind of goes through the analysis of, if there's an agreement in place, the court will consider the agreement that's in place.
Laura Koupal (19m 36s):
If there's not, then the court will make a determination kind of like get back on track. So when you're going through a divorce, like not only do I put on my intake form, you have embryos, but we had discussed dressing it in the separation agreement.
Amy Goscha (19m 51s):
Would you specifically, I mean, the language is essentially around who owns the embryos, correct. What are some other scenarios that you could see that would need to be addressed and like a separation agreement?
Laura Koupal (20m 3s):
Yeah. So the parties need to, there's a couple of things that you can do with cryo-preserved embryos. You can say that the ownership goes to the intended mother, the ownership goes to the intended father, or, you know, if it's a same sex partnership, you know, the embryos can be divided between one partner or the other, the embryos could be thawed. So basically destroyed. They could be donated to research or they could be donated to another couple. And, you know, if the parties can't decide, then the court's going to make a determination for them. So it's really in their best interest to decide. I think technically the parties could also decide to split the embryos. So let's say they had four and they each wanted to, the difficulty in that is just embryos, have different quality embryos are gender specific.
Amy Goscha (20m 52s):
It's kind of hard to do that. And I would say the majority of clients do not choose to split the embryos, but you know, when you're kind of making a consideration on what to do with the embryos, a lot of times the court will look at is this the intended parents last opportunity to have a biologically related child to them. So how they've gone through cancer treatments and, you know, remove their eggs or sperm in preparation for that treatment and no longer have the ability to have a biologically related child. The court would take something like that into consideration. If the parties both say that their family's complete, you know, they have resulting children from the embryos and, or both parties are able to kind of continue to procreate or have another egg retrieval or another sperm retrieval.
Amy Goscha (21m 42s):
Then I think the court is less likely to award the embryos to a party if the other party doesn't agree to it it's been a while since I drafted a provision and a separation agreement, but, you know, the scenario I had is my client. They had, she had embryos because she had cancer. And so it was kind of her last chance to, you know, have kids in the future. And how I address that in the separation agreement was that she was gonna keep them. But I also, I did address, you know, the fact that the thing to be ex husbands wouldn't have, you know, parenting rights and be financially obligated, you know, but at the time that was before, even in remarriage, Brooks was out.
Amy Goscha (22m 25s):
So, you know, even as a family lawyer, you, you know, you know, you need to address it, but it's sometimes hard to exactly know if you're covering every scenario, if that makes sense. Yeah, no, that does make sense. And that is correct. Well, if the parties are going through a divorce and one partner is awarded the embryos for their sole use so that they can either use them to transfer to themselves, a gestational carrier to thigh, to donate, to research, whatever, then that absolves the other partner from having any responsibility for any resulting child. So, you know, that is an instance where I think it's most similar to the parties being divorced and that spouse going on to have a child with someone else, you know, where the ex doesn't have any rights or responsibility for that new child, even though with an embryo, the X could be genetically related to the child, that partner that doesn't have, the embryos is no longer responsible.
Laura Koupal (23m 23s):
Right. And then is that by chance codified now, like in the car and a surrogacy agreement at it is. And so I think you can look back to that 19 4.5107. Well, it's probably a really good idea for any divorce attorney to, you know, really be familiar with that act. You know, so at least to review it, it's just, it's interesting. You know, when we're talking about family building, there's just a lot of different ways that families can be built in Colorado. And I think that it's good to kind of understand how clients are creating their families. The other thing that card, a surrogacy agreement act addresses that I think is interesting.
Laura Koupal (24m 6s):
And this is also in the UPC too, but we talk about, you know, parentage diff being defined, you know, if one of the parents is deceased and so it defines, you know, what, if you use an embryo that was created after one of the parties was, is deceased. And so that's under 19 4.5, one 10. And again, that's also a law sort of a little known law that we've had under the UPC tool. Yeah.
Amy Goscha (24m 32s):
That's good to know. Let's talk a little bit about, you also mentioned you do some adoption work as well, is that correct?
Laura Koupal (24m 39s):
We do so primarily I do adoption work for same-sex clients who have used assisted reproduction. So a lot of times that's a same sex female partner to have used a sperm donor. And if the partners are married, then there's a presumption of parentage if they have a child during the marriage. So you can use that presumption of parentage to have both of the partners listed on their child's birth certificate at the time of delivery. So they can go into the hospital. One parent delivers the other parent, you know, again, through this presumption is listed on at birth certificates, considered prima facia evidence of parentage. So it's the best evidence you can have that you're the parent, but it's not a court order of parentage.
Laura Koupal (25m 25s):
And so some clients get nervous about that and they want a court order that is granted full faith and credit and all 50 states. And so the way to establish that, or the way that I establish that in my practice is through either a step parent adoption or a second parent adoption. And basically we'll just petition the court through the adoption to put, to leave the birth certificate as it is, but to create an order, a decree of adoption that says both parents are equal parents of their child.
Amy Goscha (25m 54s):
Yeah. And I mean, I don't know a ton about adoptions, but like, do they have to go through and get like, you know, the fingerprints and, you know, background checks from the FBI FBI? Like, is it, I guess my question is, is it a onerous process or is it pretty easy?
Laura Koupal (26m 10s):
The most part it's pretty easy if they do a step parent adoption and you do have to do those fingerprints. So you will do FBI CBI and trails fingerprints, but then, you know, again, there's nobody contesting the option. Once you get a hearing with the court, it's a nice, you know, sort of easy hearing, both parents come with their child, you know, and it's, I think a lot of the magistrates and judges favorite part of their day in juvenile court, it's like the one time that they'll actually like take pictures. If you do a second parent adoption, there is a component. And the second parent adoption statute that requires a home study.
Laura Koupal (26m 50s):
Again, it's not the process isn't meant to preclude or prevent people from parenting their own child.
Amy Goscha (26m 56s):
And it's not again a contested process, but that's a process. I just wondered, like what, what, what is a home study? And like, what exactly is the home study like what's involved? So the home study for this type of case would require kind of financial background checks, physical checks for the child and the parents. They might do an interview with friends or family members. It's invasive, you know, it's not so invasive that families don't do it, but it's another step. And it's probably not a necessary one given that these are intended parents who have really wanted this child for a long time, and I've already gone through a lot of steps to create this child and provide a good home for the child.
Amy Goscha (27m 39s):
So I don't tell plants, shouldn't consider the home study a reason not to go through the adoption, but in my personal opinion, it's a little much, yeah. I could see that. Well, is there anything else Laura, like your area is so interesting. Is there anything else, like nuances within your kind of practice area that you think would be helpful for a family, lawyer to flag, I guess to at least be aware of, you know, in a divorce action? No, I think that we've really covered the big topics. I'm always available to answer any questions, if anybody has any, you know, or if a family law attorney wanted me to review a provision in the separation agreement or something like that, I'd be happy to help.
Amy Goscha (28m 20s):
You know, I think that the biggest takeaway probably is just to ask clients how they formed their families. Don't make assumptions, you know, remember that families can be formed in a lot of different ways and you know, that might have an implication on a separation or a parent agreement or a parenting plan. Great. Well, thank you, Laura, for coming on our show today. If you could just tell people, how can they reach you if they had questions or, you know, their potential clients. Sure. I have a website it's Copa law.com and it's K O U P a L L a w.com. And my email is just [email protected] Well, great. Well, thank you, Laura. I really appreciate you coming on today. This is a super interesting topic and you know, something that makes me want to, I need to go read the Colorado surrogacy agreement act now.
Amy Goscha (29m 9s):
Okay. Thank you. Appreciate it.
Ryan Kalamaya (29m 11s):
Hey everyone. This is Ryan again. Thank you for joining us on divorce at altitude. If you found our tips, insight or discussion, helpful, please tell a friend about this podcast for show notes, additional resources or links mentioned on today's episode. Visit [email protected] Follow us on apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen in. Many of our episodes are also posted on YouTube. You can also find Amy and [email protected] or 9 7 8 3 1 5 2 3 6 5 that's K a L a M a Y a.law.