Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha provide tips and recommendations on issues related to divorce, separation, and co-parenting in Colorado. Ryan and Amy are the founding partners of an innovative and ambitious law firm, Kalamaya | Goscha, that pushes the boundaries to discover new frontiers in family law, personal injuries, and criminal defense in Colorado.
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Ryan Kalamaya (3s):
Hey everyone. I'm Ryan Kalamaya
Amy Goscha (6s):
And I'm Amy. Gosha
Ryan Kalamaya (8s):
Welcome to divorce at altitude. A podcast on Colorado family law
Amy Goscha (13s):
Divorce is not easy. It really sucks. Trust me. I know besides being an experienced divorce attorney M also a divorce case
Ryan Kalamaya (20s):
Client, Whether you are someone considering divorce or a fellow family law attorney listening for weekly tips and insight into topics related to divorce, parenting and separation in Colorado. Welcome back to another episode of Divorce at Altitude. This is Ryan Kalamaya this week. We're getting the band back together because I am joined by our cohost, the lovely and esteemed Amy Gosha. Amy, how you doing?
Amy Goscha (50s):
Great. I'm doing awesome. How are you doing?
Ryan Kalamaya (53s):
I'm good. It's been awhile since we have done a podcast together as we're recording this it's in September and my daughter who is seven years old, just started second grade. I know hunter your son. He's not yet in school, but we thought the timing would be right for us to talk about back to school.
Amy Goscha (1m 13s):
Yeah. And I can't believe that your daughter's in second grade, they grew up so fast. Don't they?
Ryan Kalamaya (1m 18s):
And it's been a very fast year. I feel like she's grown and doubled in size. And for people that have either are looking at, going through divorce who have recently been divorced this time is a difficult time. And you know, when you're talking about timing and whatnot, so what are the issues that you see in back to school for divorced parties?
Amy Goscha (1m 42s):
Yeah, I think just like divorce or not, it's just like a period of transition for families. So if you're going through divorce, you know, like you're looking at the transition of your kids, his schedule from summer to like their school schedule. Right. And so if you're, you know, if you've already been divorced, you have a parenting plan that's in place. And so you look to that to see, you know, is there a change from, you know, summer parenting, time to school, parenting time, you know, there's some parenting plans that have a different, more like flexible schedule in the summer versus the school year, you know? So that can change. But if you're also just going through a divorce, that's something also to think about is how do you want to fashion your parenting plan during the school year?
Amy Goscha (2m 23s):
Like how far do you, and your soon to be ex-spouse live from each other. You know, doesn't make sense to have one parent have the children more during the school week versus the weekends. So that's kind of where I start. And I think another issue that really comes up is just kids are so busy these days with extracurricular activities. And so it's deciding on, you know, not only, you know, making sure that they get to school and their homework's done, but what other activities are they in? Are they in sports? Are they, you know, doing some kind of extracurricular, you know, academic camp, you know, what are their needs? Like, do they need therapy? Are they in speech? So it's just, you know, it can get kind of conflict.
Ryan Kalamaya (3m 4s):
Okay. Then indeed it can. And I think it's important when the children, when there's this transition from summer to school time, it is one of the things where it can cause a lot of anxiety for both the parents and the children. And I think it's helpful for everyone. The parents, even though they might be separated or fighting like cats and dogs that they get, or try to get on the same page and, you know, with the kids, it's maybe talking about them and the other parent about how do you explain that the kids, you know, different parents picking them up. Cause if the divorce happened over the summer or there's been a change that might be something that you talk with your children about and you reassure them that hopefully they're going to see the same friends, but also coming up with a game plan on how do your kids explain to their friends about what is going on?
Ryan Kalamaya (3m 55s):
And that is one of those things that could happen at soccer practice. It could happen at school. I also think that going back to school, it's one of those things where you probably want to talk to the teacher and explain to them, Hey, we're divorced. And you know, if there's an agreement that it obviously depends on the nature of the relationship, if people can not be in the same room as each other, and as we're recording this COVID is kind of rearing its ugly head again. And so people are concerned about being inside in doors anyways. But if, you know, there's that situation where parents can't breathe the same air, cause they just don't like each other. You know, I explained that to the teacher that maybe there needs to be separate Peachtree parent teacher conferences and just alerting the teachers so that there's no awkward situations, but certainly getting on the same page for the schedule when it comes to extracurriculars, as well as the school I think is absolutely critical.
Ryan Kalamaya (4m 50s):
And top of mind right now,
Amy Goscha (4m 52s):
I also think as parents, you know, we want our kids to succeed and for them to succeed, they have to have stability. You know, when you're going through a divorce or if you're a co-parent, if you can communicate with your soon to be co-parent or co-parent about consistency, that really helps kids, you know, and that's kind of where, you know, his family lawyers, I think ran and I see a lot of potential conflict, but hopefully today we'll be able to give you some kind of tidbits on how to resolve those things. One thing I've noticed recently is a lot of my clients do, you know, as Ryan talked about, they talked to the school counselor as well, you know, like they get those professionals involved and it's, you know, having communication with the teachers, the counselors, as well as making sure that both parents are getting the same information.
Ryan Kalamaya (5m 39s):
Yeah. And I think the, at least the studies, you know, show, you know, children are resilient, but it does take some time for them to digest that their parents are going through a divorce or have, have separated. And so I think it's this balancing act of coordinating with the teacher as well as the counselor. But if a child, if it's an older child and they get one bad grade or they just don't see, seem as involved and the teacher expresses some concern, is that reason to completely freak out. You know, it might be normal. There might be some other reasons, but yeah, getting on the same page as do we need to bring in a therapist and a counselor for the child, but certainly having that dialogue with the other parent and being mindful, cause it can change the schedule and just making sure that the children feel supported through, you know, I mean, they're going through a change with their parents, but they're also going through a change in that they're in a new grade, they might be at a different school and there's just going to be a lot of change going on.
Amy Goscha (6m 41s):
I think another part that we see as family lawyers is, you know, we don't want to talk about money with kids, but you know, everything, every activity that they're signed up for, if they need a therapist cost money. So just getting all the same page with your co-parent, you know, how that's paid and really making sure that it's clear in the parenting plan, you know, or the separation agreement, how those costs are being allocated. And I think just thinking about a solution, you know, when you're drafting a parenting plan, you know, if you think there's going to be an area of contention, like put in your parenting plan, what you guys do agree to, if you agree that, you know, your son is going to be in soccer, say Docker is an agreed upon expense or the kid is going to be in therapy, you know, with this therapist and that's an agreed upon.
Ryan Kalamaya (7m 25s):
Right? And I think that making sure that those extracurricular activities, if it's a continuation of something that they've been doing in the past, that's one thing, if it's a new activity, the communication piece of the parents in the parenting plan, at least what we typically do, Amy is have a provision about talking amongst the parents before discussing it with the children so that there's not this well, your dad or your mom is not letting you do this thing that you would, I have already discussed. And it's this blame game. And really making sure that, that agreement and, you know, certainly we've had situations Amy, where our clients, they may not be able to afford a particular activity or to share in the cost of a particular activity, but they say, you know, listen, if, if you want to sign them up and you want to pay for it, you know, great.
Ryan Kalamaya (8m 15s):
But those extracurricular activities, you know, they can be very expensive. It can be up here in the mountains, the skiing, hockey, ice skating. Those can really change the dynamic when it comes to child support. But it's also something that is a huge time commitment. And it's something that parents need to make sure they address because they oftentimes come up. I mean, my, my daughter we're having to navigate, but the first time soccer lacrosse and then our son and just, it's kind of this divide and conquer and that, you know, reminds me in terms of what you had said about the transportation, making sure that the parenting plan is clear about when is there going to be drop-offs and is it going to be at school?
Ryan Kalamaya (8m 57s):
Is it going to be at the activity? When is it that's going to happen? And then you've also got the kind of weekend activities and the weekends when it's going to be a little bit different. Right,
Amy Goscha (9m 6s):
Right. Yeah. And I know that, you know, every parenting plan, even, you know, my own parenting plan that I have, it can't cover every scenario, you know, an example is like hunter at his dad's house lives on the lake. And so my ex husband and I decided to put hunter and like training for water survival and it's every single day. So you have to really navigate and work together with your co-parent. And we had, you know, and there are situations that people can't do that. So Ren and I will give you some ideas as to how, you know, we can put other professionals in place to help you, you know, but that is the best thing you can do for your kids. You know, remembering that conflict between the two of you really negatively affects your children.
Amy Goscha (9m 51s):
So if you think about that, I think about that a lot, you know, when I'm communicating with my co-parent, you know, how is this going to create conflict or is this going to aid the co-parenting relationship? So that always helps
Ryan Kalamaya (10m 5s):
This episode is brought to you by our law firm. Kalamaya Gosha Amy. And I describe our law firm as an innovative and ambitious trial team that pushes the boundaries to discover a new frontier is and family law, personal injuries in criminal defense in Colorado. We currently have offices in Aspen, Glenwood Springs, Edwards, Denver, and Boulder. If you want to find out more, visit our website, Kalamaya dot law. Now back to the show, and what you said is a hundred percent true in terms of that no parenting plan can predict everything, but there are various things that you can do.
Ryan Kalamaya (10m 45s):
One is that you can provide detail in the parenting plan. So it can be specific in terms of time, in terms of how you communicate. You know, we had a podcast with a divorce coach who talked about dealing with a narcissistic, you know, high conflict personality on the other end. And when that communication kind of regime or protocol is going to be different than people who are getting along. And so, but the communication is so critical to providing that consistency. And at least from my perspective that a parenting plan is helpful when it spells out, how do you address this? It could say that at the beginning of the school year or two weeks before the school year, I mean the school calendar is usually released in the spring or early summer for the upcoming school year.
Ryan Kalamaya (11m 32s):
And to either sit down or have a dialogue that you really kind of look at that school calendar, you know, in here and Aspen, we just had a pretty big change in the school calendar. So it used to be that they felt on Wednesdays early and now they have done away with that. And they've added a significant number of Fridays, Mondays for teacher work days. And really, I mean, Amy, you and I, when we're going through with clients, we sit down with those school calendars they're usually available online. And I think that that is something that oftentimes parents, they kind of understand, but they, when you really kind of look at the holidays and how that's going to transition or, or really relate to that school time, it really, you have to kind of look at it.
Ryan Kalamaya (12m 20s):
And I think it's helpful for parents early on to talk about what that school calendar looks in the context of their parenting plan. And when you do a calendar, we use child custody exchange in app and the software. And I find it particularly helpful for myself and clients to look at the calendar. So when you see every other week in an equal parenting time, well, that might result in a parent having three straight weeks for Thanksgiving. You know, the parent might have their normal parenting time the week before Thanksgiving. And then the parenting plan says, it's an odd number of year. They get, you know, Thanksgiving and then they can make an argument. Well, my natural alternating week is the following week after Thanksgiving.
Ryan Kalamaya (13m 0s):
And is that really what you intended, but you don't really see those aspects when you're just looking at the parenting plan. If you look at a calendar, it really can matter.
Amy Goscha (13m 11s):
And I just, all that yesterday, mediation attorneys, mediator, clients, and we had exactly what you said. We had alternated, you know, the spring break and fall break and it could result. And it was an every other week parenting schedule. So that could have resulted in three weeks to one parent that can also happen with like every other weekend when you're looking at, you know, like labor day and Memorial day. So I think you're, you know, that's really a good tip to make sure that you're looking at a calendar and color coding it to really see, you know, how it's impacting, you know, the time. And also if you have kids that are in different schools, like elementary, middle, and high school, like they might have different breaks. So it just gets pretty complicated.
Ryan Kalamaya (13m 50s):
Okay. So we're talking about disputes and giving tips for ameliorating or, or resolving those disputes. One of the most common disputes Amy, that we see in kind of the time has somewhat passed in terms of disputing or having an argument about what school the kids go to. So talk to me about, you know, your experience and thoughts on the school conflict.
Amy Goscha (14m 12s):
So a lot of clients, you know, like hopefully they come and they're talking to us earlier than the summer, but there can be disputes with, you know, I'm enrolling son and this school and ex spouse may not agree with that. Then there's a school choice issue. And essentially, you know, we need to deal with that stuff prior to the summer, because if you're trying to get a, like a court hearing, you know, the court might not be able to handle it in time. So, you know, one of the things that you could do in that kind of situation is hire an arbitrator to, you know, make that decision. I have a case right now where it's in the middle of school year and the period has recommended for a relocation.
Amy Goscha (14m 55s):
And so now we're going to have to look at, you know, maybe switching schools, you know, mid year, but sometimes it's not a good position to take when you're going into court because the court might not want to see the kid uprooted. So, you know, it does get kind of complicated, you know, on those things.
Ryan Kalamaya (15m 11s):
Yeah. And talking about complications, I mean, as we're recording this, you know, there's a case up on the, on appeal with the Colorado Supreme court and it's to determine whether or not the trial court has the ability to essentially serve as a tie breaker. You know, that if the parent wants a child to go to one school and the other parent disagrees and wants another child to go to the other school, it's a little bit unclear from the law. You know, there was a case Griffin V Griffin back when there was custody. And it essentially said that the trial court could not act as a tiebreaker. Then we had this court of appeals case. I think it's pronounced Duygu that said that the court can, and, but there's been differences of opinion on what, you know, what, what applies.
Ryan Kalamaya (15m 53s):
And for me, I've gone to trial on this case, I'm with judge Boyd in, in Garfield county. And he determined that he had the ability to act as a tie-breaker. I think people oftentimes don't understand how long it can potentially take. And one of the situations I've dealt with the child was literally sitting at home because it was August and they didn't know where they were going to go to school. And, you know, we filed, there was a motion and a hearing and the court dealt with it on an expedited basis and said the child's going to go to one school. And, you know, they core issued a ruling on like a Sunday and really understood the importance, but that's pretty exceptional. And, you know, I know that the bench, I mean, Amy, you worked for judge Arkin.
Ryan Kalamaya (16m 37s):
It's not their favorite. They don't like dealing with emergencies, but I think a lot of judges do you understand that these conflicts can come up, you know, late in the summer. And as you said, there's, you know, there are potential other options. So if parties agreed to use an alternative dispute resolution, they can use, I've seen a PCD, a parenting coordinator, decision maker. And then most of them will ask for confirmation that they have arbitration authority. And either client that over the summer that she went on her own with a professional and arbitrator, it was a family law attorney. She presented her case why the children should go to school in Boulder, in one school. And, you know, the husband, he or the father, he presented a different, he argued for something different.
Ryan Kalamaya (17m 22s):
And the arbitrator made a decision that it costs them some money, but they got a decision. And there was no real issue on whether or not the trial judge did or did not have a authority because they essentially agreed that the arbitrator NPC, DM had the authority in that circumstance. But that is really something that I think a lot of people who don't have family lawyers and even, you know, people that are working with maybe less experience, they may not know that that's even an option.
Amy Goscha (17m 48s):
Yeah. And I think that dovetails into what else ran can, I'm a parenting coordinator, decision maker, you know, do what other types of disputes can they help with?
Ryan Kalamaya (17m 56s):
You know, I just reached an agreement on, in another case, what we agree to a CDM and the decision maker, we agreed had the tie-breaking authority to decide what sports. So for me, I used to be a Denver Broncos football or season ticket holder. And, you know, I love the Broncos, but you know, I'm not sure how I feel about my son playing football and people can differ on, you know, what activities they think are in the best interests, medical treatment. You know, one thing we've got right now is, you know, children that are 12 years old, they're eligible for a COVID 19 vaccine and can a PCD resolve that decision. It's a medical decision.
Ryan Kalamaya (18m 37s):
And just as a reminder, you know, we explain what a PCM is and what those professionals do, but you have to agree to a decision maker. You know, the court can appoint a parenting coordinator, but you know, you have to agree to a decision maker, but you know, judges, you know, they are reluctant to just jump in there and make a decision on a vaccine. You know, if you don't have a, a piece of gum, but you know, we're seeing a lot of fallout from COVID that relates to these issues.
Amy Goscha (19m 4s):
Yeah. And I would say I'm seeing more PCDs parties agreeing to them. And, you know, I mean, not only do judges, probably not want to hear those types of issues, but also, you know, in the Metro area, if you file a post to create motion regarding, you know, a sports camp or something like the sports camp will be done before you get a ruling. I mean, it's just so far out to try to resolve those things through the court. So people are needing some other way to resolve those types of issues. And so I think, you know, PCD really is helpful for parties because the PC part I kind of equate to is kind of the mediator kind of the person who's mediating between the two of you.
Amy Goscha (19m 44s):
And then the, the DM part of it is, you know, if you guys can't reach a decision, then you know, at least a decision is made for your child.
Ryan Kalamaya (19m 52s):
And I think that there's some value in having institutional knowledge of a PCM or an arbitrator for, you know, related activities. And, you know, that also brings up special needs. And that, you know, when you go back to school, you know, if a child is on an IEP or he has special needs, you know, that is something that the parents, Amy we've dealt with a lot of special needs cases. And the parents quickly, you know, they, every case is, is unique about the particular needs of the child and judges in their defense. They might not have that same exposure or that same background to really in nor do they have the time to really dive in. So how can parties work together in a back to school time when special needs, or,
Amy Goscha (20m 36s):
I mean, a lot of times how I see my clients deal with it is, you know, if you would do have a child that's an on an IEP, a lot of times there will be like a meeting with all of the professionals. So both parties can make sure that they're attending those meetings. You know, of course we're in, and I see those cases where it's like one parent is driving the bus on the IEP and then the other parent might not be as involved, but both parents really need to be involved and need to be at that meeting. And I think it can also circumvent conflicts because it's just, everything comes down to communication. If there's not communication regarding, you know, your kids issues and if you're not supportive of them and on the same page, then there's going to be conflict. So I think, you know, that's helpful, you know, I've, I've had people, you know, sit down with the child psychologist, you know, or like a mediator early on to kind of work through some of those issues.
Amy Goscha (21m 27s):
You know, they can appoint a P CDN. I think it's just, there are a lot of avenues where you can get third parties to help, you know, if there is conflict.
Ryan Kalamaya (21m 36s):
And I think it goes back to some, you know, a topic or an issue that we somewhat touched on is that consistency in the routine. And at least in my kind of observation, and that is especially important for children with special needs, but it's important for all children and having that consistency and that stability and making sure that the parents sit down and really come up with a game plan on, you know, when his homework is going to be done, or when are we going to go to, you know, a doctor's office, if it's a routine, but really setting those house rules being on the same page. And that's especially important the first year that the children are going back to school because it, you know, a parent might not be historically as involved in the medical, the special needs if it's, you know, in that circumstance, but just in general with extracurricular activities or schoolwork, and that they need to make sure that they go in United so that the children can thrive because both people, they want to make sure that their children thrive.
Ryan Kalamaya (22m 40s):
You know, they might have a difference of opinion as to whether the other parent share that, but that is at least one thing that comes to mind when we're talking about kind of routine and scheduling
Amy Goscha (22m 51s):
And just a few kind of other topics I just wanted to touch on. I was like social media. I know we've had, you know, a whole podcast about social media, but just being on the same page in both households about social media, because, you know, I've seen where kids, when they're older, if they're teenagers, you know, one parent is more laxed, the other parent's more strict. And then they're saying, I don't want to do parenting time at the other parent's house because they have free reign at, you know, the other parent's house. So that can create a lot of, you know, problems for children. You know, I've had cases where when you have a blended family, two of the kids were the same age and one of the kids started a bullying, Instagram page of the other kid and the school district had to get involved.
Amy Goscha (23m 32s):
So it's just being aware of, you know, what your kids are doing, trying to be consistent, really important, you know, cause social media, school bullying, you know, those are real issues that our kids face now. And that can be complicated if parents are not on the same page.
Ryan Kalamaya (23m 48s):
Yeah. And I mean, I'm dealing with a situation right now where a parent is posting various things on social media regarding, you know, a conflict between the parties and the one of the children is, you know, old enough where they're following their parent and they're seeing this. And so the social media component, it's a topic that brings up so many different, you know, issues and, and whether or not the account is private or public, how old the child is. But it also, in terms of, you know, do children, what age do they, is it appropriate to get them a phone? You know, like where if a child is driving, you know, those sorts of issues where they might have their license and they might have the ability to drive to school.
Ryan Kalamaya (24m 31s):
And that might be new this year, but also, you know, the, the child might be at soccer practice and, you know, they touch their parents to come get them. And those are the issues that I think frequently come up at this time of year, where people are navigating that for the first time. And the social media is just ever changing. And you know, there's been a lot of, you know, articles about teenagers and social media, but I'm glad you brought that up, Amy, because it is something that that's ever changing and, you know, it might raise the need to have a provision in a parenting plan. We've done it where, you know, we agree on when the child is going to get a phone when the child's going to be on social media and whether or not parents are posting pictures or various posts about the children.
Ryan Kalamaya (25m 16s):
And they need to make sure that they're on the same page because one parent might not feel comfortable with the picture of their children or their child, you know, being on, on Facebook or Instagram. And so just making sure that you're getting back on that same page. Cause you know, I mean, I don't know about you Amy, but my Facebook feed is just filled with back to school first grade, third grade. Oh my gosh. Like I can't believe, you know, he or she has grown up so much and you know, it might be all well and good, but you just need to make sure that, you know, you're on the same page and that's a little bit different than, you know, saying something disparaging about the other parent and about how they're not there. And that obviously is a different scenario.
Amy Goscha (25m 55s):
Yeah. And I think the other issue that I see come up around school is, you know, just if there's significant others that are in the picture, a book I read recently was about trauma by Oprah Winfrey and it was really good and it talked about trauma and introducing new significant others, but that comes into play like who's, you know, who's picking the kids up from school like you and your co-parent need to be on the same page on, you know, when someone gets introduced, you know, who's picking the kids up from school, what, you know, what that new person's role is going to be in your child's life. So that's, you know, another thing that I think a therapist, or even like a PC DM, the other role that I would met would mention that we haven't discussed as you can also hire a parenting coach.
Amy Goscha (26m 39s):
So that can be helpful, you know, in kind of on your own understanding, like, okay, how should I approach this issue? Here's what I'm thinking. Here's what my triggers are, but how can I present this and be a good co-parent? So, you know, that's another, I think tool that's really helpful for our clients.
Ryan Kalamaya (26m 56s):
No, a hundred percent. We just recorded an episode with a divorce coach, which is similar to parenting coach Divorce coach can help someone deal with the tremendous amount of change. I mean, Amy, you, you can speak from experience about how difficult it is to go through a divorce, but you compound that with going back to school and that is a change in of itself. It might be when you go to kindergarten or high school for the first time, or, you know, going to college. I mean, I've certainly been in touch with a number of clients who it's their first year of having a kid in college and making sure that there's a provision about who's going to pay for it, or, and if you're not legally required, unless you agree voluntarily in the parenting plan.
Ryan Kalamaya (27m 40s):
But having that discussion is a much easier or much more productive event. If you have, you know, a coach of some sort to kind of walk you through that. So that it's already an emotional time with the amount of change, because it just brings up how, you know, your children are getting older and you know, but then when you compound that with a divorce, it can really trigger a lot of people and result in some unproductive conversations, which does it help the children. It doesn't help anyone.
Amy Goscha (28m 11s):
Yeah. And again, I think, you know, I've said this already, but for me at least, and I think it's helpful for our clients. You know, when you're dealing with your children, it sounds simple, but you know, if you can make sure that your communication is not going to create conflict, you know, don't be a doormat and let someone run all over you. But if it's going to not create conflict, that's going to be much better for your child because conflict is, you know, in the research is the number one thing that causes problems for kids emotionally and, you know, with attachment and every
Ryan Kalamaya (28m 40s):
Well, Amy, I know we've done some other podcasts with guests and we'll have those referenced in the show notes for people that want to get more information and take a deeper dive on a parenting coach, a divorce coach, you know, a parenting evaluation or a PCD, you know, the various things that we've talked about. But I think that is enough for people to kind of have their heads spinning and we don't want to, you know, take them to school too long. So let's put a wrap on that and thanks again for joining us on Divorce at Altitude. Hey everyone. This is Ryan again. Thank you for joining us on Divorce at Altitude. If you found our tips, insight or discussion, helpful, please tell a friend about this podcast for show notes, additional resources or links mentioned on today's episode.
Ryan Kalamaya (29m 25s):
Visit Divorce at Altitude dot com. Follow us on apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to it. Many of our episodes are also posted on YouTube. You can also find us at kalamaya.law or 970-315-2365 that's kalamaya.law.