You've decided to end your marriage. It's common to wonder how your children will manage their new normal of separate households. How can you help them move forward when it feels like you’ve torn their lives apart?
Ryan Kalamaya and Dr. Elizabeth Cohen discuss tips for navigating a divorce without screwing up your kids.
What is Divorce at Altitude?
Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha provide tips and recommendations on issues related to divorce, separation, and co-parenting in Colorado. Ryan and Amy are the founding partners of an innovative and ambitious law firm, Kalamaya | Goscha, that pushes the boundaries to discover new frontiers in family law, personal injuries, and criminal defense in Colorado.
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DISCLAIMER: THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS ON THIS PODCAST IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL ADVICE. CONTACT AN ATTORNEY IN YOUR STATE OR AREA TO OBTAIN LEGAL ADVICE ON ANY OF THESE ISSUES.
Ryan Kalamaya (3s):
Hey everyone. I'm Ryan Kalamaya
Amy Goscha (6s):
And Amy, Goscha
Ryan Kalamaya (8s):
Welcome to Divorce at Altitude. A podcast on Colorado family law
Amy Goscha (13s):
Divorce is not easy. It really sucks. Trust me. I know besides being an experienced divorce attorney, I'm also a divorce.
Ryan Kalamaya (21s):
Whether you are someone considering divorce or a fellow family law attorney listening for weekly tips and insight into topics related to divorce co-parenting and separation in Colorado. Welcome back to another episode at Divorce at Altitude. I am your host Ryan Kalamaya this week. I am joined by the Divorce Doctor as she is commonly known Dr. Elizabeth Cohen, who received her PhD in clinical psychology from Boston university, as part of her graduate training. She treated clients at the world renowned center for anxiety and related disorders in Boston, Massachusetts, Dr.
Ryan Kalamaya (1m 1s):
Cohen was the recipient of the procedures, American psychological foundation research award for her doctoral research. Following her time at Boston university, Dr. Cohen completed her pre doctoral internship at Bellevue hospital center and the New York university child study center. After completing her training, she was asked to become the director of the CBT program. We'll get into what CBT is at Bellevue outpatient psychiatry clinic. She is widely considered one of New York city's experts in CBT theory and techniques. She has been featured in the wall street journal, NBC news, women's health Huffington post thrive, global and good housekeeping.
Ryan Kalamaya (1m 43s):
She's the author of light on the other side of divorce discovering the new you and the host of the podcast, the Divorce Doctor. And before I go on any longer, Dr. Cohen, welcome to the show.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (1m 59s):
Thanks so much For having me, Ryan. I'm really happy to be Here.
Ryan Kalamaya (2m 2s):
So I think where I want to start off is your journey. We heard about you, that you are a doctor. And can you tell us about how you got into Divorce work?
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (2m 13s):
So I've been working for about seven years as a clinical psychologist with people who are suffering from anxiety, depression, and relationship problems. So I was working with individuals, helping them, guiding them, having a lot of success, but at home things were really difficult for me. I was kind of able to have these two sides of me really compartmentalize where I was this helper and healer on the one end and then really struggling at home. I was married at the time to someone who suffered from the disease of alcoholism. And as a clinical psychologist really took on the role of trying to help him and fix him and heal him. And it was when my children were six months old and two and a half when I actually asked him to leave because it was unmanageable.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (2m 56s):
And I remember looking up in Google divorce recovery. And at that time, this was about 14 years ago. Couldn't find anything. And Ryan, at that moment, I realized that it was sending me the message that I wasn't going to heal. And I thought, oh my God, you know, what am I going to do? And so I have the privilege of all this education. So I pieced together like what I knew. I went to more trainings. I did what I could and slowly but surely one step forward, two steps back. I was able to heal and create a life that is way better than I could have ever had. And I'm grateful that my ex-husband and I struggled so that I could be where I am today. And I just didn't want anyone to ever have to suffer. And I also know that people there's a stigma about divorce, that people get divorced and then you kind of get into this rut.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (3m 40s):
And so I really wanted to focus on what I thought was an amazing opportunity to change and grow and heal. So I was really excited about that work. I thought, you know what, this is what I'm really meant to do. So that's how it got started.
Ryan Kalamaya (3m 52s):
Well, you know, the topic of our discussion is How Not to Screw Up Your Kids during your divorce. And, you know, I have at this 0.5 and seven year old, and so you didn't have to confront the issue of telling a two year old and a six month old at the time. But one of the most frequent questions I get in my work as a divorce lawyer is how do I tell the kids about my decision or our decision to get a divorce? So can you talk to me about how you think about that? You know, as the Divorce Doctor,
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (4m 27s):
I think actually my experience relates because the conversation about why you're getting divorced is not one conversation. You know, a lot of parents come to me and say, tell me what to say. Do you have a script? How do I say this? And I, I usually say the words are less important than the holding container or the holding space that you will provide for your children for the rest of your life, around your divorce. So while my children were young, I have questions that come up from them probably once to twice a month, about my relationship with their father, my divorce. And so it's so much more than that first conversation. That's, that's the first thing I want to let people know also to take a little bit of the pressure off.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (5m 10s):
I think there's so much pressure that there's this right way to do it or wrong way to do it. You know, if we were in a movie, you know, you would just be hearing a lot of like mumbling, like the peanuts, parents, mom, or Baba divorced, right. That's really what the kids here. They're not a lot of parents think they need to have a whole plan set. And really the first conversation is just kind of letting them know that this is happening. And I also want to encourage parents to think about their individual kids. So some kids, and maybe you have this Ryan, you know, really like a lot of information, some kids need more time to process. So you really need to consider your audience when you're thinking about sharing this information with them. And we were talking earlier about this question that comes up often of no, what's too much to tell them what's.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (5m 53s):
And I would say, if you're asking yourself, if this is too much to tell, it probably is.
Ryan Kalamaya (5m 59s):
Right, right. And that is one of your tips on How Not to Screw Up Your Kids in a Divorce and you have a master class. We'll talk about it. But can you tell me a little bit more about how much is too much and how people should think about that as they're navigating the emotions and all these questions? They've never, I mean, most people they've never been through a divorce. And so they're trying to navigate all these feelings and, and they feel like their life and their kids' lives are on the line. So they're just constantly walking on eggshells or wondering how much is too much to tell. So tell me a little bit about what people should be thinking about when it comes to telling their kids about the divorce.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (6m 42s):
Yeah. So I'm so glad that you're bringing this up and I want to start by just explaining that I get how hard it is to go through a divorce. I get that all of you who are listening have legitimate in my book, I talk about it as righteous anger. You know, you have reasons to be upset and frustrated with your ex, like all of that is true and here comes my favorite word, the golden, and, and there is a real limit in how much that anger and frustration can be communicated to your kids, that anger and frustration, which is right, like you might be right, is best held by someone like Ryan by someone like me by ID or friend, but not by our children.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (7m 26s):
The most important thing to remember is that our children are biologically designed to attach to both parents and also to other caregivers. But there's a biological map in our bodies to do that, no matter what you do or say about the other person. And especially if it's a negative, your child will have the desire to be close and connected to their other parent. In fact, if you talk negatively about your ex, your child will feel confused. Your child will feel polled and more likely dig their heels into defending the other parent.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (8m 6s):
And they also learned something else. Ryan, that is, is really debilitating for children, which is that someone who loves them will talk behind their back about another person that they care about. And they will walk around with an internal fear that one day you're going to do it to them. And remember their job is to just live their lives as best they can with as much support, not to take sides, not to support either of the parents. They are really meant to simply live in this complicated situation with as much support and love as you can give. And it's hard. It's hard not, you know, when your kid comes back from your ex's place and tells you, they went to bed so late, you know, you just you're enraged.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (8m 51s):
And of course you want to say something, but your kid's nervous system just can't manage
Ryan Kalamaya (8m 57s):
That. Right. And Dr. Cohen, you aren't aware of this, but you know, a long time or, you know, listeners are familiar. We have an Eric and Melanie Wolfe story about, you know, them going through a divorce and Eric and Melanie, and, you know, they're in a counselor's office when Melanie tells Eric that she wants a divorce and he leaves, and he goes skiing and tries to release his, his anger. So what are strategies or, or methods that a parent when they are emotional, it, how they can prevent that spilling over to their children. So what are things that you recommend, someone like Eric is not going to screw up his kids and a divorce.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (9m 37s):
That's such a great question and good on Eric. That was a really good move to do something physical. So when we're angry, it's our natural fight flight or freeze response, and we need to allow that to move through. So moving your body in any way is really important. One thing I recommend if we don't have the, I live in New York, you know, I don't have the opportunity to jump on the slopes it's to put on some, you know, really kind of heavy for me, it's heavy metal music and really letting your body just move through that emotion and really watching your body, how it moves, not necessarily guiding it, just allowing it to move. So one of the things we recommend to clients are these wall pushups. So you're basically pushing, you know, against the bottom part of your hand, against the wall and just doing some of that, that helps bring on the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the relaxation part of your nervous system.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (10m 27s):
Another one is to kind of give yourself a hug and to really allow yourself to ground into your own touch, reaching out to someone if that's what you do when you're stressed, but you're bringing up a good point. Ryan, like people are going through a divorce, should have a checklist of things that they can do that don't involve your kid.
Ryan Kalamaya (10m 45s):
This episode is brought to you by our law firm. Kalamaya Gosha Amy. And I describe our law firm as an innovative and ambitious trial team that pushes the boundaries to discover a new frontier is in family law, personal injuries in criminal defense in Colorado. We currently have offices in Aspen, Glenwood Springs, Edwards, Denver, and Boulder. If you want to find out more, visit our website, Kalamaya dot law. Now back to the show, you know, for someone like Eric, we've had a previous episode about divorce coaching and, you know, divorcing a narcissist. So what are the things that you do? I mean, you do divorce coaching.
Ryan Kalamaya (11m 25s):
And so what are things that Eric can do specifically with a divorce coach or somebody else when it comes to parenting and unpacking those emotional aspects. So that, that those motions aren't spilling over to the kids,
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (11m 40s):
It's such an important question. And Ryan, I'm so glad as an attorney that you talked to this, your clients about this, because I do think that, you know, we know that with the intensity and trauma of the time of divorce, it can feel like it will never end and you will never move through this. But I always like to tell people like one day you're going to have, if your children decide, let's say to have grandchildren, and do you want to be able to just like you said, that example of the high school graduation, like, do you want to be able to just be there for your child unconditionally and not worry? When's your other parent coming? What's like all this anxiety for your poor kid. And I just, I really try to let people know that this is still when your kids are older about them. And so at their wedding, right, it's hard enough to plan a wedding.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (12m 22s):
Are you going to give them shit for like where they're going to sit or who they're going to invite and they have enough going on. And so it's really important for you to think about how you're going to get through whether it's mediation or litigation short-term and really, how are you going to move past your rage and anger again, allowing it inappropriate places so that you can interact with your ex for the sake of your kids, because it gets tiring. We've all been at parties where someone comes over to you and has been divorced for 30 years, and it's still talking about their ex, like it's just time to kind of move through that. And so I think it's really important to think about those next life stages for your children. And, you know, it's, it's a saying, I think it's a Buddhist saying, you know, that being angry at someone and holding resentment is like holding hot coals and throwing them at another person.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (13m 9s):
Like you're the only person who gets burned. And so you miss out on your life, if you're obsessing about your ex, you really don't want to let someone live in your mind. Rent-free
Ryan Kalamaya (13m 18s):
And I think it's also important for people to keep in mind that they want to model their role models for their children. And when they are angry, everyone gets angry. But you know, there is no, I don't know of any productive thing I've ever done in my life when I have been angry. Right. And it's acknowledging that, that you're going to get angry, but you need to model how to address those feelings or your children. And if you are positive and you model good behavior, then it's more likely that your children are going to grow up and have a healthy marriage or healthy relationship when they're older.
Ryan Kalamaya (14m 1s):
And that is something I think people lose sight of. They are just so focused on how they are feeling that they don't understand the ramifications of what they do or say, and their children pick up on a way more than I think that they, they give credit to
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (14m 18s):
Exactly. I think you're absolutely right. I mean, kids pick up everything. So even when you say they didn't hear me, they heard you, it's their job to pick up on what feels comfortable and what's uncomfortable to stay safe. So they're definitely going to have heard you. I think it's also really important certainly to model how to be in romantic relationships, but it's also helpful to model how to just be in any relationship. You know, we all have, I've had a boss or a roommate or a friend who is difficult to be with, and we can't just blow that up and talk smack about them behind their back and just, you know, become enraged all the time. So you're also teaching your kids how to regulate emotions. And as a psychologist, I can tell you, that's one of the hardest things to guide and to teach someone, but also one of the most valuable and the best way to do that is to have them be able to watch you walk you, you know, stand firm, when something comes up, that's uncomfortable, watch you take the higher ground.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (15m 10s):
That's an incredibly powerful experience to witness your parents do that.
Ryan Kalamaya (15m 14s):
And so I think that, you know, there's some interesting things that we can go from here and, you know, it's on one hand, it's I think our advice, you know, collectively between us is, you know, that you don't want to bring your kids into your emotional kind of whirlwind. Also, you can't ignore that you are dealing with an emotional time and you have to address that, or you should address that. So CBT, what is CBT and how can someone work with someone like you to address in an appropriate manner that the kind of emotional fallout that they're dealing with in a divorce
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (15m 53s):
CBT stands for cognitive behavioral therapy. And so we typically take any situation in this circumstance, Divorce, and we look first at the thoughts that you're having and how that might be contributing to more anxiety, depression, or rage. And then we look at the behaviors. So for example, with thoughts, one of the areas I talk about in my book is that many people experience and talk about their divorce as a failure. And so I encourage my clients, we do this together to start out and write it out, all the words that they associate with Divorce. And so we're looking at what we would consider cognitive errors or cognitive distortions, these assumptions about divorce.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (16m 34s):
Then we suggest a possible alternative. So cognitive therapy is not about positive thinking that doesn't, that doesn't do anything because you have to really look at more rational thinking. So for example, we'll say, instead of saying, my divorce is a failure, you say my relationship came to its perfect conclusion, my partner, and I tried everything we could with grace and with dignity and here we are, something like that. Right? So we just, that's, there's more realistic thought as opposed to just a positive thought like Divorces. Great. So we do that. We really challenge the thoughts. Same about thoughts, about marriage, thoughts about children. A huge one is my children are going to be totally screwed up from going through a divorce. Like data shows that staying together when you're fighting is way worse for kids than divorcing.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (17m 18s):
If you take some of our tips, if you really work on yourself and turn inward, your kids, aren't going to be, you know, they're not going to be screwed up. So that's another myth that we challenge instead of my kids are going to be screwed up. My kids are going to learn incredible emotion, regulation skills earlier than many kids have to or something like that. So that's the C in cognitive behavioral therapy. And then the B is the behaviors that we're doing. And so we're really careful about what behaviors are we engaging in that might be increasing our anxiety, a huge one for people going through a divorce is like constant texting with your ex or text fighting. Right? So this is one where we talk about, we wait 24 hours before we received.
Ryan Kalamaya (17m 54s):
It's like the Abraham Lincoln, you know, where he would write these letters because he would be upset and then he would just throw them away. But he was, that was like a famous Abraham Lincoln. And you know, that he would never send a letter when he was under emotion or at least he let it set.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (18m 9s):
Yeah, exactly. So that's a huge one. Behavioral intervention is also noticing when you get more triggered. So is it when you're on your way to remediation, is it when you're on your way for the transition with the kids and what can you do for yourself during that time? Do you have a phone call with somebody? Do you do something kind for yourself? So really looking at the behaviors you're doing, self-care lack of self-care and really shifting those to help improve how you feel,
Ryan Kalamaya (18m 34s):
The aspects that you are addressing. Those are covered in your book. So tell our listeners about your book and why you wrote it and where they can find it.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (18m 42s):
So I wrote the book because, you know, basically it's as if you're sitting in a therapist office and doing the worksheets with us doing the journaling prompts, it's basically therapy for you at home and I'm wanting to make it accessible. What makes me most excited about is the idea that it's at the library, because I think about like, I would schlep my kids to the New York city public library for story hour, totally hair unwashed, like probably gets spit up on me just to get like, you know, someone else to spend a little bit of time with them. And if I had seen out of the corner of my eye, a book that said light at the other side of Divorce, I just think it would've lifted me up so much. So I wanted it to be available to people who couldn't access their
Ryan Kalamaya (19m 23s):
Yeah. And we, I, that resonates with me. I mean, we have a, how to series here on our, on our podcasts and they explains how to get divorced. And, you know, that's one of the goals of our podcast. But you know, now with, with various, I mean I frequently use the Libby app on my phone and it will access the public library, but it's giving people that information. And as you said earlier, kind of, de-stigmatizing a divorce and really providing people with some insight and education as to the divorce process, because there is that common misconception that you're going to screw up your kids and, you know, people frequently will, you know, tell me that.
Ryan Kalamaya (20m 4s):
And so I think it's so helpful if people want to buy the book it's available on Amazon and other places
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (20m 12s):
I feel on Amazon. I just want to encourage people there. It's also available on bookshop, which just, it's a conglomerate of small bookstores. And just after COVID they struggled so much. So if you want to get it there, you can get it there
Ryan Kalamaya (20m 23s):
And you do divorce coaching. So what can people expect if they do divorce coaching and who's the right person for a divorce coaching. If there's, if they're really concerned about screwing up their kids, what does that look like with you
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (20m 36s):
In New York city? We ha I have a clinic where if you happen to be living in New York city, we have therapists who work with my program and do my program to work with me. I have about two slots a year for some VIP coaching where people are able to have 24 7 pretty much. I do sleep access to me to help with those moments we talked about earlier, when the rage gets overwhelming or when you're in litigation or mediation, really having access to me to help you modulating your emotions in addition to having to ice weekly therapeutic sessions. So it's for anyone who's really willing and ready to do the work on themselves so that your kids don't have to bear any of the brunt of your understandable pain and frustration about the
Ryan Kalamaya (21m 21s):
And you have a masterclass. So what would people expect or could expect with your masterclass on How Not to Screw Up Your Kids in a Divorce,
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (21m 30s):
Watch the masterclass. You're going to get some tools and some tips and some worksheets exactly on what to do when that emotion gets really high. As we've been talking about,
Ryan Kalamaya (21m 39s):
You know, I think that you had mentioned earlier about waiting. We are going to, I think have a, an episode coming up on civil communicator. It's an app that has been very helpful, at least for many of my clients, but it's those tips and tactics, but also just that time that elapses and, and I frequently will see people. And I'm quite frankly more involved in those cases where there's high conflict, where people are just ripping off these text messages and it's the instantaneous communication that can really get people into trouble. And although it might be inconvenient, it's more productive when there is a little bit of space in that communication. And obviously it varies depending on that, the situation,
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (22m 21s):
It gives you a moment. I always find this at my circumstance to write the little bit nicer line, like hope you're having a good day or something else instead of just going right into it. And I don't know how much that helps, but I know for me, I feel like I feel like a better person. When I write to my ex hope you're having a good day, are you enjoying the snow? Whatever it might be, and then going into my room,
Ryan Kalamaya (22m 42s):
Right. And how you feel ultimately is going to impact how your children, because you're spending so much time with them. So even though it might not help him feel better, the fact that it helps you feel better is going to make you a better parent. Absolutely
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (22m 56s):
Well said. And
Ryan Kalamaya (22m 57s):
Dr. Cohen, where you have a podcast as well, the Divorce Doctor, you know, listeners of our podcast, what, what do you guys kind of discuss on, on your podcast and why'd you why'd you do it,
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (23m 9s):
It's actually a podcast where people simply share their stories, their experience, their strength, and their hope through divorce. So I, when I was going through divorce, I heard, you know, the only people who wanted to talk about their stories were the ones who were kind of hung up on it, like the negative. And so I didn't hear stories of healing and growth and moving through. And so this is just a platform for women and men to share their stories and for people to know they're not alone. So it's really an honor to be able to witness people's stories and share them with other.
Ryan Kalamaya (23m 37s):
Yeah. I think that when people ask me why I do what I do, it's I always explained to them that I get to deal with people their most vulnerable and no one ever says, you know, Ryan, that was really fun. Like I had a great time working with you on my divorce, but it's the 2, 3, 4 years later where they come back and they say, you know, I always in a bad spot, I was emotional. I could tell you things that no one else, you know, I could tell except for, you know, a divorce coach or a therapist, but that, you know, people, they frequently come back to me and I'm sure it's the same thing for you where they will say I'm in such a better place.
Ryan Kalamaya (24m 18s):
And you know, that I think people don't get, yeah, we deal with people's emotional baggage. It's just inherent in this work. And you know, a lot of people are like, you know, I, I want to listen to your podcast, Ryan, but I just don't want to be depressed. And it is some heavy stuff, but life is heavy. And there are things that anyone can learn, whether they're in a healthy relationship or how can they improve as individuals, but more importantly, how can they use this opportunity and this adversity to become a better person and to become a better parent. And because everyone's worst fear is whether they're married or not, not to screw up your kids.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (24m 57s):
And first of all, I just want to tell people that I always say to people like you could have stayed married and maybe screwed up your kids, right? Like we just don't. And we also, don't at my old therapist who say to me, like the things you're worried, your kids are going to talk to their therapist about is not, they're gonna talk to them about something else. You don't even know what it is. So let's just give a lot of space to parents that like we do the best we can and getting divorced does not mean they're going to be more screwed up than if you had stayed married. So I was like to point that out. I think you make a good point that it, tolerating adversity is a skill. And the question is, how do you manage it? And I think for those divorce professionals who are listening, remembering that your models too, you know, we're models, like, do we respond right away? Do we, you know, do we get swept up in the high conflict? Right. How, how do we model going through a difficult time?
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (25m 40s):
And so I think it's important for us to think about that too.
Ryan Kalamaya (25m 43s):
Yeah. I think that that is so important. You referenced a Buddhist saying, you know, Marcus really us and, and I've spoken about stoicism and it's something I try to implement in my own life, as well as my professional life, like Marcus, really us, you know, one of the famous stoicism philosophers, he would write in his journal or meditate in the morning about the, he was going to meet someone difficult that day and anticipate it. And, you know, Divorce is, it can really be competitive and can be emotional for the professionals involved. And I think that you make such an important point about modeling that. And that's something that, you know, we within our firm definitely talk about and we can always improve.
Ryan Kalamaya (26m 25s):
There's always times when, you know, you could have said something a little bit nicer and, you know, really kind of, for those that are listening, that are divorce lawyers that, you know, how can we improve as a profession? Because ultimately our goal is to help our clients and their families move forward. I
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (26m 42s):
Think one of the most important things we can teach our kids is actually about taking ownership. So I apologize all the time to my kids. And so just saying like, wow, I got really swept away in that. Or I had really a lot of trouble focusing on you because I was so overwhelmed by something happening at work. And I snapped at you. And if you ever apologize to your kids is that you can just feel the collective shoulders go down. There's just this breath that they can take, because
Ryan Kalamaya (27m 9s):
Kids are always going to assume it's just in their nature, that they've done something wrong. If your upset, because they need to survive and they need you to survive. And so they can't think that something's really bad about you. They have to, they started in word. So it's so important to always say, oh, mommy had a hard day at work, or even like I was in court. And that was really challenging just so that they don't think it has something to do with them. So apologizing taking responsibility. It's really important. Dr. Cohen, it has been a pleasure. Thank you for people that want to find out more about you and you know, they, they want to reach out where can they find you
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (27m 44s):
All the information about my VIP coaching? My book at Dr. Elizabeth Cohen dot com, which is Dr. Elizabeth Cohen dot com. I'm also on Instagram as the Divorce Doctor, and you can check out the Divorce Doctor podcast as well.
Ryan Kalamaya (27m 56s):
Cool. Well, we'll have links to all those in the show notes and as well as your book, people should go check that out. But until next time, thank you. And I appreciate the time doctor.
Dr. Elizabeth Cohen (28m 6s):
Thanks so much for Having me.
Ryan Kalamaya (28m 8s):
Yeah. Thank you everyone. This is Ryan again. Thank you for joining us on Divorce at Altitude. If you found our tips, insight or discussion, helpful, please tell a friend about this podcast for show notes, additional resources or links mentioned on today's episode. Visit divorceataltitude.com. Follow us on apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen in. Many of our episodes are also posted on YouTube. You can also find Amy and me at Kalamaya.law or 970-315-2365. That's kalamaya.law.