Navigating Parental Relocation | Episode 210

Podcast Description:

Welcome back to another engaging episode of Divorce at Altitude. This week, hosts Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha dive into the complex and emotionally charged topic of parental relocation cases, an issue that is becoming increasingly common, especially in mountain areas.

Episode Highlights:
- Introduction to Parental Relocation: Ryan and Amy discuss what parental relocation means and how it can drastically change the dynamics of co-parenting. They define relocation within the context of Colorado law, emphasizing the significant impact it can have on families.
- Pre-Decree vs. Post-Decree Relocation: The episode contrasts relocation cases during divorce (pre-decree) and those that occur after a divorce is finalized (post-decree). Amy explains why post-decree relocations are generally more challenging under Colorado law.
- Key Legal Framework: Ryan and Amy explore the legal precedents set by the Colorado Supreme Court in Spalmer v. Gillette (pre-decree) and In re Marriage of Cheslik (post-decree). They break down the factors the court considers in each type of case, including the wishes of the parents and children, the educational opportunities available at the new location, and the ability to maintain meaningful relationships with both parents.
- Challenges and Considerations: The hosts discuss the practicalities of relocation, such as the impact on children's social capital, the logistical challenges of long-distance parenting, and the financial implications, including the cost of travel for parenting time.
- Role of Experts: Learn about the importance of involving child and family investigators (CFIs), parental responsibility evaluators (PREs), and other experts in relocation cases. Ryan and Amy discuss how these experts can provide crucial insights into the best interests of the child and the practicalities of the proposed relocation.
- Strategies for Relocation Cases: The episode offers valuable advice on how to navigate these challenging cases, including the importance of understanding the law, the role of expert testimony, and the practical considerations that come into play when one parent wishes to relocate.

Key Discussions:
- Social Capital and Gatekeeping: Explore how a child’s established social network and the concept of gatekeeping can influence the court’s decision in a relocation case.
- Impact on Parenting Time and Decision-Making: Understand how relocation can affect both parenting time and decision-making resp

What is Divorce at Altitude?

Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha provide tips and recommendations on issues related to divorce, separation, and co-parenting in Colorado. Ryan and Amy are the founding partners of an innovative and ambitious law firm, Kalamaya | Goscha, that pushes the boundaries to discover new frontiers in family law, personal injuries, and criminal defense in Colorado.

To subscribe to Divorce at Altitude, click here and select your favorite podcast player. To subscribe to Kalamaya | Goscha's YouTube channel where many of the episodes will be posted as videos, click here. If you have additional questions or would like to speak to one of our attorneys, give us a call at 970-429-5784 or email us at info@kalamaya.law.

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DISCLAIMER: THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS ON THIS PODCAST IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL ADVICE. CONTACT AN ATTORNEY IN YOUR STATE OR AREA TO OBTAIN LEGAL ADVICE ON ANY OF THESE ISSUES.

Transcript

0:03

Hey everyone. I'm Ryan Kalamaya. And I'm Amy Goscha. Welcome to the Divorce at Altittude, a podcast on Colorado family law. Divorce is not easy. It really sucks. Trust me, I know. Besides being an experienced Divorce attorney, I'm also a Divorce client. Whether you or someone considering Divorce or a fellow family law attorney, listen in for weekly tips and insight into topics related to Divorce co-parenting. And separation in Colorado.

Ryan Kalamaya: 0:33

Welcome back to another episode of Divorce at Altitude. This is Ryan Kalamaya. This week, I am joined by my esteemed co host and business partner, Amy Goscha. Amy, what are we getting into today?

Amy Goscha: 0:48

Today, we're talking about relocation cases. You and I have talked about how these seem to be common, especially up in the mountain area.

Ryan Kalamaya: 0:56

Indeed we thought, given that I had just come out of a trial on parental relocation, and we'll define what exactly we mean, that we should try to record a an episode where we discuss The various kind of ins and outs. We do have a how to episode on this. This episode's going to dive into those issues in a little bit more detail, but Amy, for people that don't know how from your perspective, would you define parental relocation?

Amy Goscha: 1:29

There is a definition about what that means. And it's essentially breaks the geographic ties for parents to easily, parent their children. And that's not the exact language, but that's the basics of it. So a lot of times, in the mountain areas, you'll have towns that might be. 45 minutes away. So just, depending on the location if you're in New York City, you could sit in traffic for 45 minutes. So it's not like a minute or a mile. But that's, it's different in every kind of locality.

Ryan Kalamaya: 2:04

Yeah, indeed. I think, different states have different definitions in. Colorado, the way that we define parental relocation really what we're talking about is, and one of the factors under 1410. 124 is the physical proximity of parents to one another, and if Eric and Melanie Wolf go through a divorce, then Of course, Eric or Melanie is going to relocate but that's, is, are they moving down the street or are they moving across town? Or are they moving to Houston, Texas or New York City? Obviously the, neither of those places are in Colorado. And so we'll get into, the practicalities of that. But when I talk about relocation cases, I'm thinking something about where it substantially changes the dynamic, where Eric cannot take Johnny and Sally to school every, day if he has a week of parenting time. It's because he lives in, in Florida or, even, and we can talk a little bit if a party If Eric lives in Aspen, where I am, and, Melanie moves down the street from you, Amy, in Denver, that is going to substantially change. Now, that's going to be a different relocation than New York City versus Boulder, for example. That, when we're talking about relocation we'll get into some of the nuances and that, Within the state of Colorado, there's going to be some practical considerations. But I think it's really important for people to understand and one of the key takeaways is that there is a substantial difference between a relocation where Erica, Melanie, Wolf are in a divorce and Melanie in the divorce says, I want to move to Washington DC. And that is different than Five years after the divorce is finalized, then Melanie says, I want to move to Washington, D. C. Amy, what, why does that, why do those matter under Colorado law?

Amy Goscha: 4:03

It matters because it's much harder to quote unquote relocate. If it's five years after the divorce, if you're going through a divorce, essentially what the court and evaluators have to look at is, okay, mom is going to be In this location, dad is going to be in this location and what is, what parenting plan is going to be in the best interest of those children versus after the divorce, the court looks at the reason. Why is mom moving to Texas? Why is dad moving to? Denver. So it just becomes a lot harder once the divorce is finalized.

Ryan Kalamaya: 4:43

Yeah. And for listeners, the reason is that in 2005, the Colorado Supreme Court issued two different opinions on the same day. One was Spalmer v Gillette. That was a case during a divorce. And then on the same day, the court issued intermarriage of Cheslick, and that was for a post decree relocation case. That provides guidance for the trial courts and in turn us, Amy as family law, professionals, where we refer to, if I call you and say, Hey, I have a sparmer case, let me talk to you about it. What am I talking about, Amy?

Amy Goscha: 5:20

That's pre decree, meaning during the divorce.

Ryan Kalamaya: 5:24

And the Spalmer court said that what happens is if Melanie wishes to desire or wishes to relocate to Washington, D. C., then the court assumes that she's going to be there and then employs the best interest factors under 1410. 124. And so for listeners that aren't familiar with that's going to be number one, the wishes of the child's parents as to parenting time. So you're going to look at what does Melanie want if she's in Washington, DC? And what does Eric want if, for example, he's in Denver? And of course, Melanie is going to want what Amy in that circumstance.

Amy Goscha: 6:00

She's in Denver. It'll be in Denver.

Ryan Kalamaya: 6:02

If she's in Washington, if she wants to be in Washington, D. C., sorry but that she wants the kids to go to school with her and that really is going to drive it is there's usually a school time parent and then the parent, the non resident or the non basically the loser it for the parent. If it's Eric, then we're talking about summertime and we'll get into some of those kind of dynamics. But then you get into the wishes of the children to the extent that they're sufficiently mature to express a reason and independent preference. Number three, the interaction and relationship of the child with his or her parents. His siblings, his or her siblings, any other person that may significantly affect the children's interest. You're getting into grandparents other nannies, caretakers and then domestic violence, whether or not that is something that's going to really matter. The child's adjustment to his or her home. School and home, school and community, the mental, physical health of the individuals involved. And really this, we'll talk a lot about this Amy, the ability of the parties to encourage the sharing of love, affection and contact. Between the child and the other party and then you get into the past pattern of involvement of the parties with the child in which, whether it reflects a system of values, time, commitment, mutual support, that then gets into, who who, who took the. Kids to the to the doctor and who spent what time and if we're looking at a traditional arrangement, that really often is going to provide a huge advantage to to Melanie. If she was a stay at home mom then she's going to really have an advantage there. And then the, again, the ability of each party to place the needs of the child ahead of his or her own needs. Amy, if Melanie wants to relocate to Washington, D. C. What are the, some of the factors that Eric is going to really lean on in arguing that she shouldn't be able to, or she can relocate, just everyone should understand that there's, Melanie has a constitutional right and she's going, she can leave. And she's going to leave. It's just a matter of when. It's just a matter of whether the kids primarily reside with her in Washington, D. C. or primarily reside in Colorado. So what are the things, Amy, that Eric is probably going to be arguing?

Amy Goscha: 8:27

Eric's really going to paint for the court the picture as to why the kids lives, where they're at, is best for them and why changing it really is, not in their best interest really focusing on, this move is really about Mellony, it's not about the children. And also it's going to deteriorate the love, sharing and affection that the children have with their father. So he's really going to focus on the connections to. How he is as a parent family members, school, their friends, and why does that need to change? But for Melanie, just wanting to do that.

Ryan Kalamaya: 9:09

Yeah. And some of these arguments or strategies that Eric is going to employ are certainly applicable in a Chesley kids, which we'll talk about next, but Eric's going to try to slow things down for sure, because the kids. Absent an order allowing them to relocate because the court has jurisdiction over the children and parenting time. The court can say parenting time is going to take place in Colorado. I'll come back to that and so listeners should put a pin in that concept, but Eric's going to say. I'm going to slow things down. He might, he, he might ask for a PRE, CFI. We're going to talk about experts. But if the children start school, for example then, the court is going to be reluctant to pull them out of school. And so there's going to be some timing considerations. And, but the reality is that, especially during a divorce, the rationale is that Things get tossed up. They're chaotic. The Eric and Melanie, they're changing, where they're living. Their relationship with their children's is just inherently going to change because of the divorce process and kids are resilient. And the rationale goes that they, this is just another layer of change. It just escalates the change, but it is just it's part of the divorce process and the court in Spalmer went through this constitutional analysis and looked at Minnesota and some of these other states and people are, it used to be there, there was a case that kind of presumed that Melanie could not leave. But. That was changed. And there is a tendency, people are more mobile now. And so these cases frequently do come up and Amy you see it, but I see it a lot up, up in the mountains, there tends to be one person that either is from here or just loves, the outdoor mountain lifestyle, but of common kind of story is that someone comes here, whether they, They come after college and it's I would come for the winter, stay for the summer is a common thing we say. And then, then they go through a divorce and they're like, I am done with snow, I don't really enjoy skiing or I'm not really into this and it's really expensive in these mountain communities, it's really expensive. And so they, Melanie will say, I want to go back closer to my mom and dad and have my sister. Be able to help me take Johnny and Sally to school and the cost of living is lower. And I just am, it's a small town and I don't like the gossip or whatever that, that might have been subject to the divorce or things that were shared during the divorce. Other people know about it for a variety of reasons. People could just be like, I'm out of here. And they could say also that the job pool is fairly limited. And so they're going to look for other. Horizons and start a new chapter. Any of that resonate with you, Amy?

Amy Goscha: 12:03

Oh, yeah, all of it. And also the schooling. I think, there's arguments for there's not or sports, if you have a kid that's very talented I can't, provide, I have to travel, two hours, just for sports. So all those kind of considerations come in.

Ryan Kalamaya: 12:17

Right now if we contrast that with cheick, so Chela again is a post decre. So if Melanie wants to move to LA after the divorce, then in addition to the factors that I mentioned under 14 10, 1 24, the. The, those, the proximity and the other aspects that come into play, then we have an additional set of factors. And this is why Amy, a lot of family law practitioners say that it's, that it's harder in a post decree situation. The other thing I'll mention that regardless of the pre or post decree. scenario or relocation. There is no presumption that a mother or father is better for the kids. That is, just the case, but a lot of people will ask, can a mother really relocate? And doesn't she have an advantage? But in any event, going back to the additional factors under Cheslick. Those are under 1410 129. And we get into the, the most obvious question is why does Melanie want to leave? And so you get into what her reasons are. And by the fact that it's in, The statute on post decree relocation, a lot of people will argue you do, you're not allowed to get into that on the pre decree, the Spalmer case, the relocation in the divorce. One would argue for Melanie in that going back to the relocation in the divorce. You would say you don't get into why she's relocating. It doesn't matter because it matters for post decree and it's not explicitly listed under the statute on post decree. So that's at least one of those arguments. Amy any thoughts on that?

Amy Goscha: 14:04

Yeah, I think though Eric could argue like still one of the main factors that's very important is putting the needs of the kid above your own. So I still feel like you can get that information in through that factor.

Ryan Kalamaya: 14:17

I totally agree. And it's one of those things where depending on who you represent and how the, one of the things, whenever I tell people, yeah, I've got a relocation case or this or that, everyone wants to know, like, why are they want to leave? And the judge is going to want to know that. And and one of the factors under 1410. 124 is Any other kind of issue that could impact the children. And so you can backdoor in, but it is definitely, it is explicit factor under 1410. 129 in Cheslake post decree relocations. The second factor is the reason why the opposing party is objecting. So why is Eric. Why is he objecting? Then you get into the history and quality of each party's relationship with the child since the previous parenting time order. If you have a parenting plan and it has equal parenting time for Eric and Melanie, there's going to be a real, analysis of did, Eric or Melanie, do they exercise their parenting time and, what's the history and quality of their relationship? Then you get into another factor Amy, you mentioned this earlier, the educational opportunities for the child at the existing location, so where are Johnny and Sally going to school? And then the proposed new location and I'll stop there. You get into there's great schools. org. There's niche. com. You can have, especially for public schools, you can have these ranking services and you can compare the ratings and you can look in, you're talking about student to teacher ratios, private school versus public school those sorts of analysis and, you can get into exhibits and how you marshal that evidence through in terms of the educational. Opportunities. Amy any comment on that particular topic?

Amy Goscha: 16:06

Yeah, you mentioned, it's what's interesting when I've looked into this topic, even call it like entities that will rank colleges are starting to also produce rankings for. Like elementary schools as

Ryan Kalamaya: 16:21

well. Yeah, US News and World Report, they have these rankings and you get into the testimony about, good schools and, various arguments about what's a better, what's the better school. And then you've then come moving on to the other different factors is. You have the other factor is any advantages of the child remaining with the primary caregiver. That factor is neutralized. If you've got an equal parenting time arrangement, then you get into the anticipated impact of the move on the child. So you get into the personality of Johnny and Sally and how they've done with the divorce, the change whether they're social or they're a home body and the anticipated impact of that move. And of course, Melanie's going to say, Oh, they're going to do wonderful. It's not going to be that big of a deal. And then Eric's going to say, it's going to be a huge deal that the kids are going to really struggle. And we'll come back to that. The other aspect is whether the court will be able to fashion a reasonable parenting time schedule if the change requested is permitted. If you're talking about if Eric lives in Aspen and Melanie lives in Boulder, that is a different arrangement than Eric lives down in Alamosa which is really, isolated and, far away compared to Nantucket where there's going to have to be multiple planes, exchanged and the travel there is substantially different than, Denver to, I don't know Chicago where there's direct flights, so you're going to look into those kind of practical considerations Amy any thoughts on whether the court will be able to fashion a reasonable parenting time schedule if the change requested is permitted.

Amy Goscha: 18:11

That's where it comes into when you were talking about the school based parent versus the kind of holiday and summer break based parent. It just, looking at the practicalities of two people in different states, that's why you see those types of parenting plans.

Ryan Kalamaya: 18:27

Right, and the age of the children is going to really matter, not only because An older child might have more say in what they want to do, but they also, one, aspect that we can look into is this concept and this kind of leads us into a discussion about experts is the concept of social capital. There's a lot of peer reviewed research and other things out there. Bill Austin, Dr. Sol Rapoport, who have written various articles about the impact of relocation on, on children and, two kind of main concepts come up and one is social capital. So how long a child, if you're talking about moving a 15 year old who has grown up and they're, they have a robust friend network, they've been playing, lacrosse or hockey or whatever it is. And you're looking at real, moving them then, and they're doing well in school. That is a different analysis than, a child that is seven months old or, two years old, and they really haven't established that friend group that absolutely is going to come into play. But then you also talk about the practical considerations. Can a child get on a plane and fly on their own direct? If they're 10 years old, then they can, do that. They might have an unaccompanied minor. If a child is two years old, obviously they're not going to be able to travel, on their own on airplanes.

Amy Goscha: 19:56

And I would say that when you're talking about social capital, there is also established research that says when you change a child's school, it sets them back at least six months.

Ryan Kalamaya: 20:06

Yeah. And, we certainly have seen there's multiple relocations. So the risk of a child having some potential challenges and issues is increased the more relocations that occur. The, there can be multiple relocations but then you also get into the 2nd concept that it comes up is a concept called gatekeeping. And, there's different kinds of gatekeeping there's restrictive gatekeeping, there's protective gatekeeping, there's facilitative gatekeeping and really restrictive gatekeeping. Eric is going to argue. Melanie is going, is trying to restrict my access and restrict my the children's relationship with me by virtue of a relocation and inherently a relocation by Melanie, whether it be Miami or Chicago or Seattle, is there's going to be this argument that this is about you, Melanie, what's best for you, not what's best for the children and there's always this argument about that, children should, be around parents in the peer reviewed research suggests that, children do well or do better that they need to have at least 30 to 35 percent of the time with a parent to, have a meaningful relationship. Of course, there is less and you can also, it doesn't necessarily mean that. If you have more than 35 percent that you therefore have a great relationship with your child, there's certainly parents out there that have more than that that, really struggle. But those are some practical considerations that really come up in relocation cases.

Amy Goscha: 21:45

Yeah, I think that the gatekeeping one is a big one.

Ryan Kalamaya: 21:48

And Amy what are the, if we're switching gears and we talk about experts, what experts can we expect or what experts are we looking at as potential options in a parental relocation case?

Amy Goscha: 22:02

You can have a child and family investigator. You can have a parental responsibility evaluator who can come in and can Essentially, render, make findings and a recommendation as to whether or not the relocation is in the children's best interest. And then you can also have a work product expert come in if you don't agree with how the CFI or the PRE. Their recommendation.

Ryan Kalamaya: 22:28

Yeah, and the final expert I just relied on one in a recent relocation trial was essentially a blind expert or an educational expert. And so my expert. Talked about the research on relocation and then we had a series of hypotheticals that were based on, on, on the case, but the court learned about this, the peer reviewed research and the social science that exists about social or about parental relocation and restrictive gatekeeping. But if we go back to The PRE versus the CFI, one of the questions that Eric and Melanie are going to have to deal with is, Do we have this PRE travel? Do they go, does the PRE or CFI, do they go to Honolulu, Hawaii, where Melanie wants to relocate and scope out like and, one of the questions that that PRE is going to have and the. The court's going to have is, okay, Melanie do you have a house there? Or is this just like an abstract? And you would, they would go there and they would, research or have an idea of what the life is going to be like. And one of the questions or one of the things that the court or that really the evaluator is going to look at is Have the children been to this place? Is there, have they been going back? Is it every summer they've gone back there, they spent a substantial amount of time and that kind of gets into the travel component because the travel can really increase costs, especially when you have Google earth and the ability to research on line. A lot of the experts with zoom or other things, they can do a pretty good job of evaluating. What life is going to be like there. Any thoughts on that, Amy?

Amy Goscha: 24:14

Yeah, I think just to, you can have the PRE travel even pre decree if the divorce isn't finalized, it doesn't have to be just, post decree but I do think that after COVID and use of technology, we are seeing maybe that they're not going to need to travel, as much because it does create a lot more cost for the parties.

Ryan Kalamaya: 24:37

And, these relocation cases can get extremely expensive, but Eric and Melanie, the stakes are so high because, and I describe relocation cases as the nuclear bomb in any divorce, but they the percentage of the cases that involve relocation, they go to trial disproportionately, unfortunately. On a higher level and that is because the stakes are so high. Eric is going to want to have a meaningful relationship with his children and that makes it harder if they're going to school in Houston, Texas, and that he's going to have to go and travel there. He's going to say, listen, I, my relationship with my is going to be substantially hindered if. Even if I can get down there every other weekend there's a direct flight and, travel still, my parenting time is going to be in a hotel. I'm not going to be able to cook dinner or attend the Tuesday night recital or the, Thursday night sports game. That's just, it's much harder and school just takes up so much of the social. Dynamic and schedule that it really can drive those cases to trial. So people are often willing to Spend whatever it takes because it fundamentally You know alters that the relationship between a pot, parent and their children you can't have a peer e or a CFI they go do an evaluation Let's say they say You know the kids we talked to the kids want to relocate. And then, Melanie's always been the involved parent, and we think that it's in the children's best interest to relocate. Eric, not accepting that will say, I want now either a supplemental PRE, another PRE or a PRE that kind of trumps the CFI. And so then there can be this prolonged period. Of these evaluations because they can take a very, long time And then after that then each side can get their work product expert to talk about how the expert that you know that they don't like and because there can be competing recommendations and all the stuff and the work product expert can come in and say you know that evaluator didn't do their jobs and they can be extensive. You know, trials because you're getting into crime rates and you're bringing in these witnesses who talk about their relationship between the child and their own kids and their family and all the great things about this particular location and they can really be intensive trials.

Amy Goscha: 27:18

Yeah, and I think also they don't settle and go to trial because there's just not a lot of room for compromise. It's either 100%. Yeah, relocating or they're not. And I think the other thing that is important to mention is that if it's post decree, it does say within the rules that the court is supposed to make it a priority, is supposed to hear it. So like part of the strategy also is Like, how soon do you need to relocate? Do you have time to get, an expert involved? So that can also play into the strategy and how you move forward.

Ryan Kalamaya: 27:53

And the, the, yeah, the statute does say it needs to be handled on an expedited basis. But again, it does take some time. You don't just rush these cases along. And the, even in remarriage of chest, said, the, these are the most challenging, some of the most challenging cases that judges have to deal with. And you talk to judges, they hate Spalmer. They hate relocation, just the idea, but Spalmer in particular, those particular cases. Pre decree cases, because it requires this abstract, this legal fiction. Melanie is already gone. She's already in Chicago. She's already in New York and you can't ask why you can't say you have to stay here. Judges just don't like that. And in fact, there was a case, Morgan v. Morgan. Where the court said, all right, Melanie the mom you you can exercise your parenting time, but all your parenting time is going to be in Colorado effectively. What that meant was because Melanie testified, I'm not going to leave if. If I can't, if I don't win, if I don't have my kids and so then the court said, okay I'll see your bluff or I'll force you to stay here. And we ordered all parenting time to occur in Colorado and the court of appeals said you can't do that. That's you know, you're restricting someone's constitutional right to live and so you have these competing constitutional issues. On one hand, A parent has a constitutional right to have a relationship with their child. They have a constitutional right to parenting time in, in essence. But on the other hand, that parent has a constitutional right to travel. And so the court with these cases is trying to balance that. And in Cheslake, the court, even though, everyone says it's there, it's harder to relocate, the court explicitly says that both people have the equal burden of proof. That, Eric, he's going to be arguing for, and I don't mean to stereotype and say, Melanie is always the one that relocates. Eric could have met, a new partner, and he could say, I, where he got a job assignment that took him somewhere else. And the other interesting, aspect Amy, that we really haven't talked about is just the zoom you talked about in the age of COVID people have more flexibility to work where they're going to work. And That changes things, certainly, because, Eric or Melanie could say, Hey, I want to, I'm going to move to Chicago and Eric, you work remotely. What's the big deal? Like you can come and work in Chicago and you can exercise, equal parenting time if you want to. Go skiing because that is like you grew up in Colorado and you want to go skiing with Ryan because he skis all the time. That's great. You can do that on your non parenting time, but I have family in Chicago. I want to move back there and you can still work there during during the week remotely.

Amy Goscha: 30:45

Yeah, one trend I've seen in cases is that because the workforce is, it's hard to find employees, companies were willing to have people work remote because it was COVID, everyone was remote. But now you're seeing this trend where corporations are saying, we need you to be back here. And so people, I have a few cases right now where they live in the mountains. Yeah. But the company is on the East Coast and the company on the East Coast is saying we really need you back here. So it's an interesting trend that could be creating possible relocation issues.

Ryan Kalamaya: 31:19

Indeed it is and that you could there's so many different elements that go into parental relocation that I'll tell you just a couple kind of observations. One is that it's really, it's incredibly frustrating to deal with an attorney or someone that just does not understand the law on relocation where they're like, they seemingly think that a court can order someone to live. The other thing on the flip side is that if Melanie comes to me and says. I'm thinking about relocating. I will have a very, lengthy conversation with her about why she wants to and, and tell her, hey, this is a really important decision. If you're going to do it, you should it's easier to do it now. This is going to likely result in the case going to trial. And it really depends on the kids. If you're talking about, a six month old baby who is. Breastfeeding, that is a physiological, that there is a real advantage for a mother in that circumstance. If you're also talking about a stay at home mom who really is connected with a child. Then, and the child is young, like five, six years old, that is, that it's not as if it is a done deal, but it, that is a much harder scenario for Eric to, really. Object to or, it might not be worth him fighting because he's got to think about it. And, one thing I've talked with other family law lawyers is, what would I do in that circumstance? And, a lot of people it's listen, you should just follow them because Eric could move to Chicago and follow Melanie, if he wants to have a relationship, not, I shouldn't say that if he wants to have a relationship, but if he wants to have the same kind of relationship that he was expecting when they filed those are the sorts of conversations that, that can be really challenging, notwithstanding the whole, do we get an expert and, the presentation of that particular party's case.

Amy Goscha: 33:21

Yeah, I think I would also urge listeners to think about the practicalities of what it's like for the children having to deal with two parents that are in two different states, because as they get older, even for the parent who has the kids in the summer, they have sports, they have, things that they, so it becomes more about the kids and their relationships, not as much, even though as parents were like, you're the, we're the most important things to that changes over time, as kids get older.

Ryan Kalamaya: 33:49

Oh, it totally changes over time. And if we're, if Eric is the one that wants to relocate and he is saying the kids can go to school with me, then. Is Eric prepared to, the traditional paradigm for parenting or relocation parenting plans is, Eric has the kids during the school year, but Melanie's probably going to get a disproportionate amount of the holiday time. So it might be every spring break. It might be every Thanksgiving. It might be, every winter break, all of winter break. And then, and then the. of the summer. So it could be six, eight, nine weeks of a straight parenting time for Melanie during the summer. And Eric might say, listen, I'm the one that's taking them back and forth between school. And I'm having to do homework. And then yeah, I get them on the weekends, but the weekends it's, Soccer and lacrosse or, traveling around. And I don't get to do really any vacations. And I mean that there, there can be that reality. The other thing too, Amy, that you mentioned is kids, as they get older, they become, generally speaking, more resistant. To going back over the summers to their, to Melanie in this circumstances place they don't want to leave their friends and they might have, you start sports they might need to come back and play sports. And the other aspect is if they've traditionally done a sleepaway camp, whose time is that coming in on? And all of those aspects, really, it's something that I think we as family law lawyers really need to walk through our with our clients about what does this look like and positioning that, whether they represent Eric or Melanie to tell that story and to really Look at what are the things that are to our clients advantage. If the children are older and they've been in a particular location, you're really going to lean into this is their hometown. This is the social capital that they have built up. And we don't know how they're going to do in this other location where their children are really thriving and, then you get into the other Practical realities. If Eric has to work and he's traveling for work, can he really be that primary parent? Is he going to have to hire a nanny or some other person? And that's going to be different if Eric is going to get remarried then, then he might have another co parent or another parent to help him out, but his work schedule might preclude him from really even being a parent. Considered if he's a pilot or some other, profession that, from a reality or a realistic basis is going to prevent him from taking the kids to school Monday through Friday.

Amy Goscha: 36:25

And I think one thing we've really focused on parenting time, but you also see in some of these cases, decision making possible changes, like the parent who is moving. I'm going to know the schools. I'm going to know the doctors. I should, I have more knowledge, so I should get final say, you hear clients, or at least I hear clients tell me that a lot.

Ryan Kalamaya: 36:47

Yeah. And then the core is looking at, the relationship the way People communicate. And on one hand, if Melanie is not going to be the primary parent and they're out, does joint decision making immunize or protect her from being alienated or there's, some sort of gatekeeping. Or on the other hand, does it make sense for Eric just to have sole decision making because he is the boots on the ground and he is going to be the one that makes those decisions because they impact him the most and there's various issues with that. The final thing that I'll mention on relocation. Is that there is a cost obviously to the travel and that can come into play for child support because, moving the kids back and forth between households, it is an expense and it is factored into the amount of child support. Arguably it doesn't include a parent's, trip where parents travel to come exercise, parenting time, but, put. To put Sally on a plane to go to New Jersey, for example that is, a cost and we're going to, be looking at the pro rata split of that for child support.

Amy Goscha: 37:56

Yeah, and I think just to be clear, and I don't have the statute in front of me, but it does say the child support statute says for a kid under a certain age that it could include some costs for travel for the parent, but not over a certain age.

Ryan Kalamaya: 38:10

Right, and that's the reason is that The parents probably going to have to accompany Johnny or Sally along for that plane ride. And so absolutely. And then 1 other point that I'll mention is that PCDMs and or arbitrators, they can be a solution, or they can at least address. If, for example Johnny, Test positive for COVID before he's supposed to get on the flight for Thanksgiving. What happens in that circumstance? And, if there's a cancellation of a flight or, Johnny has a some sort of recital or school play. That is, that is going to prevent travel. Then what do you do in that circumstance? And, those sorts of, they often are time sensitive disputes, PCDMs, Parenting Coordinator, Decision Makers with Arbitration Authority, they generally can step in really quickly and say, Nope. This is what we're gonna do, and that's gonna be much faster. And, it's gonna be a more thoughtful decision than a district court judge that's just planning a a bunch of, or dealing with a bunch of different things. Hopefully you've learned something about parental relocation. These are gut wrenching, really challenging cases, but they do come up. And the law is allows for each side to have their different arguments. But until next time, thank you for joining us on Divorce at Altitude. hey everyone. This is Ryan again. Thank you for joining us on Divorce at Altittude. If you found our tips, insight, or discussion helpful, please tell a friend about this podcast. For show notes, additional resources or links mentioned on today's episode, visit Divorce at Altittude dot com. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen in. Many of our episodes are also posted on YouTube. You can also find Amy and. Law or 9 7 0 3 1 5 2 3 6 5. That's aaa.