Divorce at Altitude: A Podcast on Colorado Family Law
Divorce at Altitude: A Podcast on Colorado Family Law
What is Reintegration Therapy in Colorado | Episode 215
In this episode, Ryan and Amy tackle the complicated and often misunderstood topic of reintegration therapy in family law. Following recent media coverage, Ryan and Amy dive into the role of reintegration therapy, its challenges, and how it aims to help children rebuild relationships with estranged parents.
Episode Highlights:
- What is Reintegration Therapy? Ryan and Amy define reintegration therapy as a therapeutic intervention aimed at helping a child rebuild a strained or severed relationship with one parent.
- Challenges with High-Conflict Divorce Cases: They discuss common scenarios where children resist or refuse contact with a parent, stemming from issues like substance abuse, domestic violence, or alienation. They explore the gray areas of determining whether a child’s refusal is rooted in safety concerns or emotional influence from one parent.
- New Legislation & Media Attention: Recent changes in Colorado law, driven by Caden’s Law and national concerns about parental alienation and child abuse, are reshaping the way courts approach reintegration therapy. The statute now requires reunification therapy to meet scientific and safety standards and places stricter limitations on separating children from their primary caregivers solely to repair a relationship with an estranged parent.
- Therapist & Court Roles in Reintegration: Ryan and Amy discuss the slow and careful process involved in reintegration therapy, emphasizing the importance of setting realistic goals and understanding that rebuilding trust between a parent and child is often a long-term effort.
Key Takeaways:
- The Role of Therapy: Therapy can be a powerful tool to help children in high-conflict divorces, but it requires time, patience, and a deep understanding of family dynamics.
- New Colorado Law: Focuses on safeguarding children in cases where allegations of abuse or neglect are present, requiring reintegration therapy to be backed by scientific validity and safety.
- Realistic Expectations: Reintegration therapy is not a quick fix. It can take months, if not longer, to make progress, particularly in cases involving serious conflict or past trauma.
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What is Divorce at Altitude?
Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha provide tips and recommendations on issues related to divorce, separation, and co-parenting in Colorado. Ryan and Amy are the founding partners of an innovative and ambitious law firm, Kalamaya | Goscha, that pushes the boundaries to discover new frontiers in family law, personal injuries, and criminal defense in Colorado.
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DISCLAIMER: THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS ON THIS PODCAST IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL ADVICE. CONTACT AN ATTORNEY IN YOUR STATE OR AREA TO OBTAIN LEGAL ADVICE ON ANY OF THESE ISSUES.
Welcome back to another episode of Divorce at Altitude. I am Ryan Kalamaya, and as usual, I am joined by my esteemed co host, Amy. What's going on, Amy? What are we talking about?
Amy Goscha:Hi, Ryan. We're talking about reintegration therapy and its place within family law. So it's a very interesting topic. There's been some media coverage on it recently, so we're hopeful that We can destruct it so listeners can understand what it is and where it sits right now in the context of helping families or not within divorce cases.
Ryan Kalamaya:Yeah. And to be clear and, so that people understand what we're talking about, reintegration, we're talking about, parental where a child is either refusing or, and we'll get into, there are a lot of loaded terms and terminology, but it's in essence when a child has either a strained or non existent relationship or is refusing to go to a parent's, Eric Wolf's house and you mentioned media coverage specifically there was a Wall Street Journal article on court ordered therapy that separates kids from a parent they love stirs a backlash. It was from August of 2024 that there was a an analysis of these different programs across the country. But in Colorado really, I set the stage, Amy, but just for the audience what else are we talking about when it comes to reintegration therapy?
Amy Goscha:So what we're looking at is when, like when someone gets divorced or, say that a child has lived in two households for a long time. It just gets very difficult because you have a kid who is going back and forth between houses, you have parents that don't know what is happening, like what's being said, what's not being said, in one household or the other. A lot of times what happens is depending on the circumstance a child's relationship may be strained with one parent at some period of time, and sometimes it could be from emotional abuse, it can be from physical abuse or it could be from a parent just talking negatively You know, about the other parent. And so it just really puts the child in the middle and so the point of kind of therapeutic intervention and not just keeping everything in front of a judge every day because it's just not possible is to the point of a therapist is really to help the child. And also to figure out, like, how do we make relationships with children better with both parents? Because I think as a baseline, kids want a relationship with both of their parents. There are circumstances where maybe that isn't safe. So I think over the years experts are trying to figure out, like, how do we help children that, and it needs to be out of the courts. And so what we're really talking about is courts who are figuring out okay, I can order parenting time, but that's not working. and what else can I do to help, make this better for, kids and parents. And so we've seen over the years kind of iterations of, court ordered therapy, whether a child needs to have a child psychologist, a child therapist whether or not there needs to be Family therapy, whether or not there needs to be reintegration therapy. So I think it's really helpful to start from defining what does this mean? It's pretty self explanatory, but a child therapist is a therapist for the child. Family therapy usually is a therapist who's coming in and really working on the dynamics within the family. So the family therapist might meet with mom might then meet with dad might do another session with mom and dad. Reintegration therapy is really focused on the relationship repairing the relationship that between a child and a parent where it's severed. So that's, different, and there can be different ways that a reintegration therapist or reunification therapist structures that type of therapy, but that's the baseline that we're talking about. What are some things, Ryan, that you've seen, within your cases? That would be helpful to talk about.
Ryan Kalamaya:These are really challenging situations because there can be substance abuse. That is a thing that I have certainly seen. If Eric, for example, Wolf, if he has a drinking problem or a drug problem, that could the consequence or, as a result, a child could say, I don't want to go to dad. He's always drunk or, and then it's in those situations there can be trauma. So Eric gets, in drunk and he punches his son or there's something, some sort of traumatic event. And then the son says, I am not going to dads, but then that is, the, that's contrasted with Melanie. is, saying so many, she's so hurt from, let's say Eric is having an affair or something, that, of that variety. And she's just constantly leaning on the children and saying, your dad doesn't care about you. Oh, you have to go to dad's house. I'm so sorry. And the result, the cumulative result. is that they, just start saying, I don't want to go to dads and there's restrictive gatekeeping, there's protective gatekeeping, there's all these different concepts and it is not black and white. In these situations, Eric will say, Melanie is alienating The children, the parental alienation, and that has, we're going to get into some of the changes in the law and the social science. There has been a lot of work on this, but the result is that often there will be, Johnny or whoever the son or daughter and it says, or not says, but basically that. Child refuses to go to see Eric or Melanie and, Eric and Melanie the kind of favored parent or the parent, they have a duty to encourage the child if it's safe. And you mentioned that because if it can be damaging to a child to be around a, an intoxicated, parent. So you first need to isolate that, but then you get into. What is the appropriate kind of level or amount? And they have, that they're supposed to encourage the love and affection towards the other parent, but they don't have an to kick a kid kicking and screaming and jam them into a car and saying, you're going to go to your dad's house. That is where it gets, really problematic. So Amy, how can therapy help? What are the things that. A reunification therapist is going to focus on you talked about the family therapy versus the individual, therapy, but what are these therapists, what are the things that they can do that can help?
Amy Goscha:So the premise of reintegration therapy is to try to make a child feel more comfortable with the parent that they're having. So it's getting a reintegration therapist is really looking for the underlying reasons for the resistance of the child. So there's different approaches and we'll talk about some of the approaches that have been. In the media, I think the biggest key and something that you mentioned is that you got to figure out what the level is. It is complex. There's different ways to, do reintegration therapy where it's just, one session a week to the, extreme where courts, now have gotten the media attention where they actually place the child, take the child away from the favored parent and place it with, place the children for a period of time with the, the severed parent's relationship. And that seems to be in the media that, that kind of traumatizes children. Essentially I think a reintegration, a really good reintegration therapist will be able to figure out like what level is, necessary and we'll be able to hopefully weigh, the safety concerns because they're also mandatory reporters as well. But it gets really challenging because the minute that there's 1 allegation, say, there's an outcry for abuse from the child. Then the next thing is is. The parent, the alleged parent will deny it. And then it's is. The other parent trying to coach the child, so you're the child is getting triangulated. And the reintegration therapist is really there to try to a figure that out and to help make the child's relationship, better. But it's very challenging and it can take. Some period of time, I think another kind of realistic expectation for people who, go take the therapeutic approach, which can be very helpful is it's a slow process. It's not like a magic wand and it just changes everything, overnight reintegration therapy can take. Up to a year, and I think it's also looking at expectations, some of the expectations and I just did a podcast episode with Dr McNamara, which will be coming out. So you can get it, get some more information from, a therapist perspective, but really. Making sure that we understand what the goals are. Some relationships are very severed to the point where it's hard for a child not to get nervous sitting in the same room with a parent, so having those kind of expectations. But essentially we mentioned about the legal implications. In Colorado we have a new statute. It's about, education and. Further defining like course of control and how that has an effect on allocating parenting time and also, the use of some of these therapeutic approaches and I'll back up. You had mentioned. The media coverage that. Where I can't remember exactly where it was, but it was a essentially a survey of what's going on in the nation regarding.
Ryan Kalamaya:Yeah, the Wall Street Journal and this really resonated with me because I had a, a case where this was discussed and the article. Talked about these various businesses or reunification kind of camps and, that I've heard a judge in another case, call it the nuclear option. And that would be, the child or children will refuse to go to, for example, Eric, and then the judge will say, listen, we've tried everything. And here's what's going to happen is that the children are going to be removed from Melanie's house. They're going to be living with Eric a hundred percent of the time until it's a particular thing happens. And often to Kick that off or one solution is they'll go to some kind of residential camp or something. They, and they're very, they can be very expensive. And they're across the country, Tennessee, Minnesota, California, and, the kids and Eric will go to, Tennessee. And they'll live in like a dorm or like a cabin or something. And they'll go through this intensive therapy session about, the children, why do you not like your dad? And really challenge them. And it's very controversial in terms of, the results and is this. Good for the kids. And so there, it is a polarizing, scenario and that's different, that nuclear option is different than something happens. Eric, loses his cool and, spanks a child. And it really depends on the children, the ages and all of that. And you mentioned, the time if Eric, he did something that was wrong. He's going to have to rebuild that trust. And so it could be first, working with a reuphancation therapist and going to lunch, for example, and then lunch becomes spending the day that the following weekend. And then the, the next month after you've built up that trust, then there's a. And then, another overnight and Eric could have gone to rehab, for example, for, some sort of abuse, substance abuse disorder. And, but what you were getting into Amy is that, domestic violence and coercive control, those. Components are really top of mind with, the judges we talked about in another episode about the kind of turnover and the bench and it's been significant. Tell our listeners a little bit more about this, the new law and how it relates to what. The current judges and bench are dealing with and also the evaluative, the forensic evaluations that, maybe a result in terms of these situations.
Amy Goscha:Yeah, so and I'll back up a little bit. There was this. I think it was Caden or Caden's Law that was passed and that was based off of there was a scenario where a judge granted unsupervised parenting time to a seven, to a parent who then beat his seven year old very severely. So there's been this trend through the U. S. to really look at the inner connection between Allegations of abuse against children, and then the interplay between, what judges are doing with that and family law cases. And so there has been federal funding that has been issued to essentially regulate just to make sure that what kind of therapy is being implemented is actually, is actually You know, working that there's some empirical data back, to making sure that this is actually helping children and not causing, more issues. And so Colorado passed a statute and it's very starking. The General Assembly lists some of the facts which I find very. Very concerning. Approximately 15 million children are exposed each year to domestic violence. Also, and this is within the statute. So it's just defining what the problem is. Also, what I found very interesting is there was a statistic that said that if there is an allegation of child abuse, That in family law cases, that judges only believe that allegation one fourth of the time which is very problematic. So this statute really is I think it's important to understand that the reason that this is set in place, the intention is to really provide education to, judges and also to experts who are dealing within this field because it can be very complicated when you have two parents, one parent coming in and saying, Eric hit my child, and Melanie's saying that, and then Eric is saying no, Melanie actually is It's, like telling the child to say that, it gets really complicated. Figuring that out is really hard. And the statute also talks about how if there is going to be reintegration therapy that is used, if there's even like an allegation of abuse, this law is saying that, Reintegration therapy might not even be appropriate. We're finding that reintegration therapists are not even taking, these cases. So I think that, with any kind of legislation, and this happens a lot, is the intention is really good, but there's some unintended consequences that come from it. And the law really talks about putting, having the Abuser take responsibility for their actions. It focuses more on the actions of the abuse, the abuser versus the parent that's alleging it. But what's problematic in these cases is more times than not the Abuser will just deny it, will deny the allegation.
Ryan Kalamaya:And as a former prosecutor though, I can tell you they will blame the, like the victim or the mom or the dad, the perpetrator often will blame the other party. And then the, these. Often result in the high conflict, then you start getting the narcissistic personality disorder, histrionic, those sorts of, terms are bandied about and it is, it's it is so challenging because, the, and, you talked to Kate McNamara about this before, and we've talked about it on the podcast the forensic, the lack of forensic kind of models or lack of really qualified people that can get in figure out because it's oftentimes, like I said, it's not black and white. So there, there's going to be responsibility by both parties and, that, but often they present it's Eric's fault, a hundred percent, he's a narcissist. And then Eric will say she, Melanie is alienating the kids. And, the other thing that I've observed, Amy, is that on one hand, you have less. experienced evaluators who might be more familiar with their kind of current research and, but they just don't have enough experience to really evaluate the personalities and the people. And, they just don't have that experience. That is in contrast to some of the older, more experienced evaluators who just think that they know based on their experience and they're not they're set, they're they were trained based on. old models. So when they were in grad school or they did their PhD parental alienation syndrome or some other kind of old historic, paradigm was in vogue and the research I'd Just recently had a case with, Saul Rappaport, who was, he was a phenomenal social scientist based in Illinois and, the research and the academic literature on these issues is evolving. We are figuring out or, and we don't. But there's it's like the brain, like the mind we have, we are scratched. We've scratched the surface in terms of understanding what all is going on. And it's, it is changing all the time. It's been changing since, you and I started doing this kind of work. And the statute at least has evidence based, scientific valid proof as a standard for these expert witnesses.
Amy Goscha:Yeah, so specifically with reintegration therapy, it defines that the order for reunification therapy and less Reunification therapy has to be generally accepted. It has to be scientifically valid. It has to be proven that it's safe and effective. So there's more parameters around that. And also there was language within the statute that says that you can't limit the time with the favored parent, essentially, by, by removing a child from a protected party solely to improve a deficient relationship with the accused party. So there is more parameters around it, which is really helpful. I think the unintended consequence that we're seeing with some of the languages that just says, allegations. And so we have these experts who are saying, I don't want to be. Blamed, or essentially grieved. So families who really need this help, the like pipeline of experts is also like dwindling. So like you said we're trying to figure it out, I think.
Ryan Kalamaya:And I think the other thing is that There's some change that is inevitable in a parental relationship as a result of the divorce. The people they're in in the same household oftentimes, and there's conflict and there's rules. Eric goes to work, Melanie takes care of the kids and as a result of the separation or divorce, Eric needs to step up and be more involved and then Melanie, there's a change there, right? And so there's going to be some speed bumps along the way with that change. And it's a matter of, I don't want people to think about, oh my gosh, like we're gonna have to get a reintegration therapist. These are fairly extreme cases and you know it when you see it. And, but there is that element of how much of this is just a natural the Johnny and Sally are reluctant to go to Eric because, they've never been to his new apartment or, whatever the case may be. How much of that is natural versus how much is this? Do we really need to have a reintegration therapist get down? And it's, it, like I said at the beginning, it's very gray area in terms of how these situations play out. But I want the audience to understand these are pretty extreme cases and the unfortunate. reality is that there is no silver bullet. It's no, there is no this is just one session and everything is fixed. Eric may say, sorry, he may not, but it really, often gets to some really deep, seeded issues that take a very long time to address if at all.
Amy Goscha:Yeah, exactly. And I think what to your point, Ryan, I think The stats are, less than, I think this was nationwide, 10 percent of divorce cases go to court, and then there's such a small percentage of those cases that are these high conflict, ongoing post decree divorces afterwards. I think the takeaway is that we're figuring it out. Therapy still is, a good tool to use within a divorcing type of situation. It's just figuring out the level, sometimes kids just need a short, like six week session with the therapist for a transition, it doesn't have to be this on week, weekly thing. So figuring that out is really important, but I think the biggest takeaway is that there's a national trend to define this to recognize that there. There is this issue that needs to be addressed and making sure that the therapy that is in implemented within family law cases has some empirical backing.
Ryan Kalamaya:Yeah and we have upcoming episodes. There's various kind of tangential issues to reunification therapy. There's privileges with respect to the therapist. There's different professionals. So there's a CLR, Child Legal Representative there's a reintegration therapist, there's therapists, for the children, for the parent and the lawyers and how all of those play. There's PREs CFIs, there's a lot of acronyms and there's a lot of people that can be involved. Sometimes you can have too many chefs in the kitchen, but really the kind of main point for all of this is what is going to be best for these children? These children are clearly, suffering in these situations and that Eric might have a different take on why that is versus Melanie, but everyone. And that's often lost in these situations is people. There's a lot of blame going on instead of saying, Hey, they have a different take on. The, what's best for the kids, but it, these are, really challenging situations and the, everyone's trying to do what's best for the kids, but the conflict in and of itself is often the most harmful thing for these children. And that ongoing conflict is, the studies are pretty clear on, on how detrimental that is. But it's easier said than done to say can't we all just get along? And you can't just tell Eric and Melanie to go off in the woods and sit around the campfire, two years after the divorce and sing Kumbaya, like that's just not how it works. There's a lot of baggage. There's a lot of history and unpacking that between, the various parties and their children is really complicated. Yeah, I agree. Hopefully that helps people understand a little bit more about this issue. Really challenging, but thanks for joining us on Divorce at Altitude. And if you found this helpful, please, reach out to us and most importantly, send this off to a friend or someone that you think might benefit. Until next time, thanks for joining us on Divorce at Altitude. I'm Ryan Kalamaya joined by Amy Goscha. Thanks. hey everyone. This is Ryan again. Thank you for joining us on Divorce at Altittude. If you found our tips, insight, or discussion helpful, please tell a friend about this podcast. For show notes, additional resources or links mentioned on today's episode, visit Divorce at Altittude dot com. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen in. Many of our episodes are also posted on YouTube. You can also find Amy and. Law or 9 7 0 3 1 5 2 3 6 5. That's aaa.