Divorce at Altitude: A Podcast on Colorado Family Law
Divorce at Altitude: A Podcast on Colorado Family Law
Money and Marriage - Do You Understand Your Partner's Money Story | Episode 221
Welcome to Divorce at Altitude, your trusted resource for navigating Colorado family law with attorneys Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha. Each week, they dive into topics related to divorce, co-parenting, and relationships, offering practical insights and expert advice.
In this episode, Ryan is joined by Nikki Tucker, Certified Divorce Financial Analyst and founder of The FIIRM Approach, to kick off a three-part series on Marriage and Money. The first topic in the series is understanding your partner’s money story a concept that can significantly impact both relationships and divorce outcomes.
Episode Highlights:
- What is a Money Story? The role of past experiences, family dynamics, and cultural influences in shaping financial habits and beliefs.
- Money Stories and Relationships: How differences in financial values and behaviors can create conflict and how understanding your partner’s perspective can strengthen your connection.
- Proactive Money Conversations: Strategies for creating a safe and productive environment to discuss finances and avoid unnecessary tension.
- Money Stories in Divorce: How understanding your spouse’s money story can lead to more empathetic and effective settlement negotiations.
Whether you’re looking to enhance your relationship or navigating a divorce, this episode offers actionable advice to help you better understand your financial dynamics.
📞 Connect with us:
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kalamayagoscha
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/kalamaya-goscha/
• Phone: 970.315.2365
• Email: nfo@kalamaya.law
If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who may benefit. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube for more episodes on navigating divorce and custody issues in Colorado.
What is Divorce at Altitude?
Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha provide tips and recommendations on issues related to divorce, separation, and co-parenting in Colorado. Ryan and Amy are the founding partners of an innovative and ambitious law firm, Kalamaya | Goscha, that pushes the boundaries to discover new frontiers in family law, personal injuries, and criminal defense in Colorado.
To subscribe to Divorce at Altitude, click here and select your favorite podcast player. To subscribe to Kalamaya | Goscha's YouTube channel where many of the episodes will be posted as videos, click here. If you have additional questions or would like to speak to one of our attorneys, give us a call at 970-429-5784 or email us at info@kalamaya.law.
************************************************************************
DISCLAIMER: THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS ON THIS PODCAST IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL ADVICE. CONTACT AN ATTORNEY IN YOUR STATE OR AREA TO OBTAIN LEGAL ADVICE ON ANY OF THESE ISSUES.
Welcome to Divorce At Altittude, a podcast on Colorado family law. I'm Ryan Kalamaya. Each week, along with my business partner and co-host, Amy Goscha, or an expert, we discuss a particular topic related to Divorce or co-parenting in Colorado. In addition, we have created a short series of lessons that will take you through the legal process of Divorce and answer your questions from simple to complex. Divorce isn't easy. The end of a marriage, especially when children are involved, brings a great deal of loss and change. We hope these practical tips and insights will help you on your journey to a new. And better life. Welcome back to another episode of Divorce at Altitude. This is your co host Ryan Kalamaya. We're going to be starting a series on marriage and money. We often talk about divorce, but that presumes marriage is in the in place in the first first place. And I'm going to be joined by a guest who specializes in marriage and money. And she's also a Certified Divorce Financial Analyst. It's Nikki Tucker. And she is going to be helping us dive into three different topics. This is the first topic of the three part series, and it's going to be do you understand your partner's money story? Nikki for listeners that don't know you can you explain a little bit about your background and how you got into marriage and money?
Nikki Tucker:Of course. Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here and always happy to have this conversation. So I have been in love with the topic of money and finance since I was a little kid. I Like to say that I was the money nerd that liked to play with the 10 key calculator and thought I was going to be an accountant and then realized that accounting was too boring for me. So I moved over to finance, but I have been a financial professional for over 20 years. I've been in the divorce space for the last five. And it's really important to me that female breadwinners, working women, whether you're a primary breadwinner or you and your partner are working the female breadwinners protect their financial security. And I think we're doing a better job just as a society at whole with making sure that women are educated and understand more about money, but we still have a ways to go.
Ryan Kalamaya:Indeed we do. And for listeners that are familiar with our hypothetical divorce clients Eric and Melanie Wolf Eric is often positioned as the business owner and the financial the breadwinner and Melanie is the stay at home mom. But and, but I think that the merging and the divorce process often results in Melanie having to educate herself. I've certainly gone through that process with representing Melanie in the, in various kinds of different iterations of Melanie, but let's talk about whether Eric and Melanie, their money story and why that might matter for their marriage as well as any sort of subsequent divorce. So what is a money story?
Nikki Tucker:Money story is something that's really simple. We just don't talk about it in this way, but it is essentially the experiences, the emotions the motivations around how you think, feel, and handle money. And we all have our own unique money stories. And sometimes we don't understand why we do the things we do, why we have the habits we have when it comes to money, but it's generally tied directly to your money story.
Ryan Kalamaya:And what impact do you think family or culture or other past experiences has on that so called money story?
Nikki Tucker:Oh, it's huge. It's huge. That's the biggest pieces of it. So when you think about your family, most of our references around money are what we saw our parents doing or depending on your family structure, the people in your household, the conversations that were happening when your family was together. Even the influences of things like the TV shows that you watch or now with social media, what you see online can influence what you think about money and how you feel about money. And your money story is shaped when you're really young, but it can continue to evolve as you're an adult. But all of those things absolutely impact your money story.
Ryan Kalamaya:Yeah, that resonates with me. I, my grandfather he passed away, but he grew up in, during the Great Depression and, had World War II and his money story certainly was different than my own. And my parents, how they look at debt and how they spent their money definitely is something that it impacts my own personal money story. Can you, and I think people can understand that they can think about, and you hear various people I've had friends who, have said, I grew up, I didn't have any money. And so the financial security and, really being motivated to do this. Buy money that was informed because of their childhood. So can you maybe talk to listeners about how different money stories can impact relationships? So if Eric and Melanie, if they have their different money stories, how can that impact their marriage and their relationship?
Nikki Tucker:There's a direct connection with divorce and money. And so that means there's a direct connection with marriage and money. And very often because people have their own unique stories, as it relates to money, two people coming into a marriage likely don't have the same money story. There may be similarities, there may be some things that overlap, as no two marriages are the same, no two money stories are the same. And so that means that there can be a greater likelihood of conflict. and contention around money because your perspectives are different. So if you have one spouse who's a spender and another spouse who's a saver those are opposite types of behaviors, opposite personalities. And so there's going to be a little bit of conflict. So when it comes to marriage and money, I think it's really important To not only understand your own money story, but understand your partner's money story. And it's no different than understanding things like love languages and understanding food preferences. If we break it down on the most basic level, you know the things that they like and the things that they don't like. Maybe the stories associated with it. Oh man, I used to love, I'm a really big foodie, but I'm also a very picky eater. So someone may say, Oh I love Sherbert and it's Oh I can't stand Sherbert because we ate it every day after dinner when I was at my grandparent's house. And now I just never, ever want to have Sherbert again, really simple. But there's a story associated with why someone doesn't like Sherbert as ice cream or as a dessert. And so when it comes to money, it's very similar. a little more complex, but it's very similar with understanding the reason and the experiences that someone has that makes them feel the way that they feel. And then seeing if there are opportunities for someone to be more flexible in their perspective or peel back the layers as we talk about in therapy sometimes to see how you can get on one accord.
Ryan Kalamaya:There's going to be some overlapping in our, different episodes and we'll talk about this later in a separate episode about whether or not you're financially compatible. But I was listening to this podcast episode. With Bill Eddy and Andrew Huberman and Bill Eddy, he specializes in high conflict resolving high conflict, relationships. And one of his recommendations, which makes sense and it gets to our point here is that he recommends people spend a year living with each other or not necessarily living with each other, but holding off on any sort of engagement or anything for a year before they get. Engage and that's to really feel out and see whether or not they're compatible. And certainly when you have different money stories that kind of evolves or, presents itself over time. Can you maybe talk about that process of discussing money openly and maybe, For the, the people that are having conflicts now where they're we're recording this, we're embarking on the holidays, people can have different values on buying gifts or, having experiences to travel. How does that matter for a relationship where people might have different money stories? How can they talk about it in a more productive manner?
Nikki Tucker:Ryan, you asked me about 50 questions in one question, but that's okay. I can answer those. So I think that. One of the approaches I love to talk to clients about is making the environment in which you are discussing money very calm, very comfortable. So sometimes the topic of money comes up when there's a big spending event or a big purchase or something's going to happen. And it's not necessarily the right time or place, but the conversation has to be had in the moment because a decision needs to be made. An alternative to that is to is you're having proactive conversations. You're having regular conversations and you're having them in an environment that feels safe. That's a really big part of being able to be comfortable and transparent with money discussions is people need to feel safe. There's a level of vulnerability that comes with discussing money. All of the taboo topics and traditions and again, like you said, societal expectations. All of those things can make someone really uncomfortable or really comfortable talking about money. So if you start with an environment, That doesn't feel hostile if for example, let's just say you're home You have a basement, but your basement is unfinished and I'm just putting this out here as an example. Your basement is unfinished So it feels very cold. There's concrete. There's no carpeting. It doesn't feel inviting. It doesn't feel warm It doesn't necessarily feel safe. You probably don't want to have money conversations in your basement. And so That means that you pick a place, you pick a time, you set a date where you can have proactive discussions about things that are happening in your relationship or in your household or in your life within the next three to six months. And you start to get in front of it. So that's one of the things that I think is really important that a lot of people don't do, but it's easy to do. It won't cost you any money. Now, if you want to be fancy, sure, you can go to some fancy hotel and turn it into a whole weekend and, have champagne and strawberries and. It can be sexy because sometimes the conversations about money is not sexy. You can create the environment that is palatable for the both of you, but don't make it so like sterile and so hostile that people just don't even want to sit down and start the discussion.
Ryan Kalamaya:I'm in, Divorce, the divorce industry. And so hostility is a frequent aspect. Can you maybe talk a little bit about how understanding a person's money story, the other side's money story, as well as their own, can be relevant for someone going through a divorce?
Nikki Tucker:Yeah, absolutely. So the money problems, discussions, fights, arguments that you had in your marriage, there are absolutely going to show up in your divorce negotiations and your settlement conversations. So don't think that if this person, acted one way while you're married and then that's gonna go away when you're going through a divorce, that's going to happen is very unlikely. And so what I mean by That is, if you keep those particular nuances of their personality type and their triggers, if you keep those in mind when you're having conversations, it can make for better settlement discussions. That doesn't mean that you're going to agree on everything, but there's a level of empathy that you need to have. And just really tap it into emotional intelligence and say, I know that when we get to discussions about spousal support, my partner is going to be very sensitive, is going to be very defensive about this because maybe their dad complained, for the last 10 years about the fact that they have to, he has to pay out. His mother, something like that. It could be anything. Or they have a best friend who feels like their life has been destroyed and they're not happy because they have to pay spousal support. You have to be mindful of all of those things when you're going into the conversation. And you begin with Defense and offense in mind. So I used to be not on the debate team, but I loved debate when I was in school. And the best way to prepare for a debate was to know what the other person was going to say. And so if you know this person, which if you've been married to them for any good amount of time, you likely know this person, some of the things that they're going to say. In your settlement discussions, be prepared for that on the front end and say, Hey, I know this is what you might be thinking, that this is my angle or that I'm trying to destroy you. I'm not trying to destroy you. I'm just trying to make sure that, me and the kids are going to be okay and that we can keep things as comfortable and as easy as possible. And so here's why I'm asking for this amount. Here's how I got to this amount, but let's talk about it and figure out if we can find a happy compromise. Okay. Those types of things, it's easier said than done because there's so many emotions and sometimes there's a lot of anger and things associated in these conversations. But that's one of the ways that I think they can be more productive is if you put yourself in the other person's shoes and you often have the information to do it.
Ryan Kalamaya:Yeah, a couple points on that is they, I think this episode, this, I love this topic because a, it's applicable to people who are in a marriage and they can, everyone can improve their their relationship and understanding and having open conversations. About money and understanding the, your partner's money story, I think is helpful for anyone in a relationship. That's point one is that you can improve your relationship by having open conversations and really trying to put yourself in the other person's shoes. And if you don't know what that is like. Ask why this is important. Ask why they feel this way about money. And point B is the, if you're moving on and you're going through a divorce, I think it's still helpful to ask. And it obviously depends on the level of communication, you mentioned, and we'll talk about it. In another episode is that divorces or money is one of the most common reasons for a divorce. And but lack of communication and that the inability for people to communicate is certainly, another reason. But, understanding the other person's perspective in a divorce, anticipating that debate argument that you're going to get. I think that is so helpful for people in a divorce because they can understand there are certain people that they are, they prioritize getting a predictable kind of monthly support amount. And that might be really important to them where they're not worried about the property or, and they might prioritize just having that predictable monthly check. And they also might. Prioritize having the house as opposed to, the cryptocurrency account that's up and down and that, that rollercoaster, that volatility, that is relevant to their money story. Nikki, can you maybe comment on those two perspectives, like in the relationship and in a marriage, as well as the divorce that we haven't really covered thus far?
Nikki Tucker:Yeah, I agree with what you said 100 percent and something in particular that I want to make sure I touch on is that question of why. So that's a big part of those conversations. And it's a little bit easier to do when you are married and not approaching divorce. It can still be done when you are approaching divorce, depending on if the goal is to have a more amicable divorce or not. But if you're Thinking about it from the perspective of just, in your marriage in general. Usually, people may ask the question why, but they only ask one time. And there's a concept that I did not invent, but I love it, called five whys. And that means you keep asking why until you get to the fifth why. Now, you may not always have to, you may find the root cause or the really deep reason of why someone feels the way they feel by the third why. But if they answer a question after the first why, but it doesn't seem like a sufficient answer. You do want to gently continue to probe and say, okay, but why do you feel that way? And then they give you another answer and say, okay, I think I got it, but let me just ask one more time. Why do you think this is that? Normally, it's not going to take more than five and generally won't take all five, like I said, but that's a good strategy and tactic that I think anyone can use when you're trying to understand someone and you can do the same thing in divorce. Now, the way you ask and depending on the situation, one may be trying to figure out like, what's your motivation for asking that? That's a little bit different, but I think both scenarios present an opportunity to dig a little deeper and it's just by asking why more than once.
Ryan Kalamaya:Yeah, there's a Harvard business review article that I read recently and talking about negotiations and how asking questions results in optimal, better results in negotiations. And so it's something I have been consciously trying to do in my own practice is asking the other attorney, why does your client, Ryan Kalamaya, Amy Goscha, Divorce at Altitude It's fascinating just to see where people are coming from. Cause it really is that money story is the bedrock of where they're coming from. Nikki, we're going to have the, your, Link in the show notes and we'll talk more about your firm the firm approach can you if people want to find out more information? What's the best way to reach out to you and could you paint a picture of What that might look like if people are interested in having you help them develop their money story or why that might you know Matter to your work.
Nikki Tucker:Yeah, sure. So the best way to find me is Just go into the website. It's TheFarmApproach. com. Farm has two I's, so always call that out. If you don't type in both I's, you'll still find us, but Farm has two I's. And The Farm Approach is It's a resource company as well as an opportunity to work with us directly. And so we have digital programs to help you prepare for divorce and consider all the different things that you need to be aware of and how you can keep your costs down. And then we also have a live teaching and an on demand program as our signature offering. It's called Bring Home the Bacon. And so Bring Home the Bacon is intended for women who have gone through a divorce and they're trying to figure out, what do I do now? How do I get everything back on track? This emotional rollercoaster has finally come to an end, but has it? And so having those conversations and giving unique advice. guidance about your individual situation as well as telling you these are the things that we need to make sure you take care of in order to protect your financial security. Now that you are a single breadwinner, whether you have spousal support or child support coming in or not that's the main thing that we do.
Ryan Kalamaya:It's super helpful, Nikki and appreciate your time. And as I mentioned at the outset, this is the first episode of three. We're going to be talking about why prenups aren't popular enough. And the third and final episode, Screw Love Are You Financially Compatible? So for listeners that found something of use in this particular episode. Check those other episodes out and reach out to Nikki and her firm and, to further your money story education. Until next time, thanks for joining us on Divorce at Altitude. hey everyone. This is Ryan again. Thank you for joining us on Divorce at Altittude. If you found our tips, insight, or discussion helpful, please tell a friend about this podcast. For show notes, additional resources or links mentioned on today's episode, visit Divorce at Altittude dot com. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen in. Many of our episodes are also posted on YouTube. You can also find Amy and. Law or 9 7 0 3 1 5 2 3 6 5. That's aaa.