Divorce at Altitude: A Podcast on Colorado Family Law
Divorce at Altitude: A Podcast on Colorado Family Law
Money and Marriage - Why Pre-Nups Aren't Popular Enough | Episode 222
Podcast Description:
Welcome back to another thought-provoking episode of Divorce at Altitude! In this episode, co-host Ryan Kalamaya continues the three-part series on marriage and money, diving into the compelling topic of why prenuptial agreements aren't popular enough. Joining him again is Nikki Tucker, Certified Divorce Financial Analyst and founder of The Firm Approach.
With over 20 years of financial expertise, Nikki offers valuable insights into the stigma surrounding prenups and why they can be an essential tool for couples to establish trust, financial transparency, and security before saying “I do.”
Episode Highlights:
- The Stigma Around Prenuptial Agreements: Nikki discusses societal norms that paint prenups as unromantic or pessimistic, and how reframing them as a foundation of trust can change perspectives.
- Benefits of a Prenup: Learn why going through the process of creating a prenup—whether or not you ultimately sign one—can foster open conversations about money, protect assets, and minimize conflict in the event of a divorce.
- Prenups and Modern Relationships: How shifting demographics, such as delayed marriages and the rise of female breadwinners, make prenups more relevant than ever.
- Financial Transparency and Communication: The importance of aligning on financial values, understanding your partner’s money story, and how these discussions can strengthen a marriage.
Key Discussions:
- The Myths Around Prenups: Nikki addresses misconceptions, including the false notion that signing a prenup increases the likelihood of divorce.
- Navigating Financial Insecurity: Tips for stay-at-home spouses, breadwinners, and couples to understand their financial landscape before and during marriage.
- Financial Planning Beyond Divorce: Nikki shares advice on building a strong financial foundation after divorce and preparing for future partnerships, including the role of cohabitation agreements.
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• Phone: 970.315.2365
• Email: mailto:info@kalamaya.law
Thank you for tuning in to Divorce at Altitude. Stay with us for the final episode in this series, where we’ll tackle the question: “Screw Love: Are You Financially Compatible?” Don't miss it!
What is Divorce at Altitude?
Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha provide tips and recommendations on issues related to divorce, separation, and co-parenting in Colorado. Ryan and Amy are the founding partners of an innovative and ambitious law firm, Kalamaya | Goscha, that pushes the boundaries to discover new frontiers in family law, personal injuries, and criminal defense in Colorado.
To subscribe to Divorce at Altitude, click here and select your favorite podcast player. To subscribe to Kalamaya | Goscha's YouTube channel where many of the episodes will be posted as videos, click here. If you have additional questions or would like to speak to one of our attorneys, give us a call at 970-429-5784 or email us at info@kalamaya.law.
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DISCLAIMER: THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS ON THIS PODCAST IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL ADVICE. CONTACT AN ATTORNEY IN YOUR STATE OR AREA TO OBTAIN LEGAL ADVICE ON ANY OF THESE ISSUES.
Welcome to Divorce At Altittude, a podcast on Colorado family law. I'm Ryan Kalamaya. Each week, along with my business partner and co-host, Amy Goscha, or an expert, we discuss a particular topic related to Divorce or co-parenting in Colorado. In addition, we have created a short series of lessons that will take you through the legal process of Divorce and answer your questions from simple to complex. Divorce isn't easy. The end of a marriage, especially when children are involved, brings a great deal of loss and change. We hope these practical tips and insights will help you on your journey to a new. And better life. Welcome back to another episode of Divorce at Altitude. This is your co host, Ryan Kalamaya. This is the second episode of a three part series on marriage and money. This episode, we are going to be diving in on the topic of why prenups aren't popular enough. And I am joined by my esteemed guest Nikki Tucker. If you want to learn more about her, I certainly encourage you to check out the first episode of the series. Do you understand your partner's money story? But for those that haven't listened to it Nikki is the founder of the firm approach linked to that. Businesses and websites can be in the show notes, but she is a 20 year financial professional who really focuses on helping women and others, but primarily women go through their journey. Nikki, before I go on and on do you want to give listeners a little bit better idea of who you are and why that matters for prenups and why they're not popular enough?
Nikki Tucker:Yeah. Thanks again for having me. And this particular topic is near and dear to my heart, mainly because not only have I been in the space for a long time, but I know a lot of Amazing, successful, professional women. And part of the reason I got into the divorce space and became a certified divorce financial analyst is because I was having conversations with women who were quite successful and married, but in unhappy marriages. And there's this thing that we all have as a community, women in particular. So after we graduate from school, college in particular, we've had a lot of milestones together. Prom and graduation and a lot of people get married around the same age. So it's lots of celebrations and it's great. Until you're married and then things are not going well. And you're like, Oh God, what do I do now? And if you feel very alone and you're not exactly sure what to do or what to believe as it, when it comes down to ending your marriage because you weren't taught those things and you don't understand those things. And so having conversations with women who were afraid to even approach the topic of divorce, because, Spouses said I'm not going to pay you any child support, or I'm not going to pay you alimony, or you're not going to get anything if you leave me. And I'm listening to this, not as a divorce expert at the time going, that's not how that works. I know that is not how that works. And it gave me an appreciation for All women, regardless of their education and economic status, or even where they live, that there are a lot of people that don't know, what it's like to, what it means to go into a marriage and the implications of it, particularly financially, and then also what it means to end the marriage. That's my lens.
Ryan Kalamaya:And through that lens, which is different than many people that are contemplating marriage right now, can you maybe talk about. The stigma of prenuptial agreements and premarital agreements and the benefits of having one for listeners. We've had multiple episodes Amy and I have talked about invalidating prenups, why they might not be bulletproof. We've talked about Kevin Costner's premarital agreement that was all over the news. But, Nikki, Can you maybe comment on the women that you work with and the stigma that may be associated with a prenuptial agreements and what are the benefits, from your perspective on a high level?
Nikki Tucker:So the stigma has a lot to do with societal norms and expectations. And we are taught from a very young age that marriage is forever. And that is usually the intention, but that is not the reality. We are also taught to focus on the wedding and the ceremony and all of those things, and not necessarily the particulars of the business side of marriage. And I think that while it's not romantic or sexy, people have to realize that there's the relationship, the relational side of marriage, and there is the business transactional side of marriage. And most of us want to ignore the business side of marriage because it's not that fun to talk about, but it's a really big piece. And it's something that I think is misunderstood. And people feel like having conversations, really deep conversations about money, but for sure about prenups. One is a jinx, and it means that you're going into the marriage with the end in mind. Two, that it's about a lack of trust, which I completely disagree with. The benefit of a prenup, even going through the process. Regardless of whether you sign on the dotted line or not is absolutely about trust. From my perspective, it requires you, the process of going through a prenup requires you to disclose a lot of financial information about yourself. And it also gives your partner the choice So there's a deep level of vulnerability that makes people afraid of the process but also because you want it on both sides. Prenups should be mutually beneficial. It's not one sided. So when you hear about prenups being thrown out, not all the time, but sometimes it's because they're very one sided. They weren't. Completed the process wasn't done appropriately. You didn't have appropriate representation. And so when I'm working with clients, I'm trying to get them to understand this is for your protection and your partner's protection. Particularly if you've been married before, you've likely accumulated. Assets. If you have children, you want to make sure that the things that you have earned go to your children, if that's how you want things to be. But on the most basic level, like I said, regardless of whether you sign or not, you get to have a really good understanding. of what it is your partner wants and how your partner thinks about marriage and money and how they'll approach things. And then you get to decide together that this is how we'll handle money in our relationship. This is how I expect things to handle. Should one of us be handled? Should one of us die? And this is how I expect things to be handled if we get a divorce. Again, not the most sexy conversations, but it can relieve a lot of stress and provide peace of mind. And in the event of a divorce, save you some money too.
Ryan Kalamaya:Indeed. I think, it's like setting up a business when things are, Going well, and you're engaging and barking on a new business. It's often that's the opportune time to talk about, what happens if our, if one of us ties if the biz, if the relationship goes south, we can in, in calm terms. Talk about what that future split may, may be. And I think there is a cultural shift going on with, millennials and earlier or, newer generations in terms of whatever they call themselves, I've heard various kinds of terms, but they are, They appreciate that the divorce statistics are what they are, and we'll talk about that next, but I think that they've seen their parents often go through a divorce and they it's more, they're more pragmatic. People are also, the statistics are very clear that people are holding off on getting married. And so they are coming into the marriage with more. Assets and established careers and it's relating to our earlier topic, Nikki, about coming in with, and understanding your partner's divorce story, because you fast forward that or really have to confront that when you are Negotiating and discussing a premarital agreement because you then start figuring out if you haven't already what is important and their money story. But can you maybe talk to me about the reality of the divorce rates and the financial protection? You reference the benefit. Can you maybe speak a little bit more about that?
Nikki Tucker:Yeah. So today's divorce rates are really interesting because you'll see. Statistical data that says divorce rates have come down a little bit. It's marginal. It's not significant, but it's somewhere close to half of marriages end in divorce. A little bit less than half now. Part of the reason that the divorce rates are slightly improving is because of what you just said. People are waiting to get married or not getting married at all. So if you don't have the input there, obviously the percentages will change. And I think it's smart that our younger generations are Being more mindful of the information that they have available to them and are taking into account their experiences and being a bit more strategic when it comes to marriage and understanding the impact of divorce. What's also interesting is there's a rise in gray divorce. And so gray divorce is older individuals deciding to divorce. We're talking like 50 and older. So many of these couples have been married for 20, 25, 30 years, and they're deciding to end their marriages. And many of them don't have prenups. Why? Because it wasn't a common conversation. when they got married. And so again, you have their children and their grandchildren who are front and center and are witnessing what is happening in their own families and taking those lessons. Learning opportunities to say, okay when I get married, maybe I'll do things a little bit different. I also think it is making just the topic more common. So if you talk about it more, if you normalize it more, if you help people understand the positives and not just the sensationalized stories about how things go wrong, then people I think are more accepting of it. Because of course, yeah, things get. Thrown out in court, and there's battles over prenups. That's true. It's probably more of the exception and not the rule, but you don't hear about that in, in the news as much. No one wants to hear a boring story about Oh we got married. We had a prenup. We got a divorce and everything was fine. Who wants to read that? So I think you have to keep all of that in, in context. I have a college age son and he's not planning on getting married. Anytime soon, but he's absolutely pro prenup. And I think it's because we've had conversations about money. We've had conversations about marriage and he'll, he admitted recently, he still doesn't quite understand what marriage is and what goes into a marriage and all of the things you're agreeing to. I think recently he said Oh, you have to sign a contract and you agree to all of these laws. And I'm like, ah, not really. Yeah, but. People don't understand what they're getting into when you sign a marriage license. And so to your point about businesses, I've worked with many businesses in the past. That's the other side of my professional life, commercial businesses with revenues anywhere from 5 million to 100 million. So things like buy sell agreements, they're very common. It's okay to talk about in the event that this business Doesn't survive or we want to part ways. It should also be okay to have these conversations about marriage.
Ryan Kalamaya:Yeah. We have these assumptions in law, and that is that when people get married, that they really understand fully what that means for estate planning, what that means for financially, the assets, the income that they acquired during that marriage, and then we have a really. The culture where people are moving and they can go from California to Colorado and there can be a significant change in how that relationship, that marriage is all of a sudden treated financially. And when you have an agreement that spells out, this is the law that we're going to apply and they can. Inform, and we'll talk about some of the exceptions, they can have their own agreement about what they think is fair. And I 100 percent agree with you, Nikki, and that we often, Amy and I often see premarital agreements and when they're fair, that. Results in a much more predictable often more amicable divorce process when it is one sided and it just, it helps one person, Eric Wolfe, and it says Melanie Wolfe gets nothing. Eric Wolfe gets nothing. In that scenario, she is incentivized to go and fight. So it's counterproductive. And I wanted you to ask you, paint the picture or persuade me that premarital agreements are better for a marriage in terms of how that marriage is more likely to be successful and not end in a divorce in the first place.
Nikki Tucker:I'm so glad you said that. Because that is definitely a myth that is out there too, that if you have a prenup, you're more likely to get a divorce. There's no statistical data that proves that. And on the opposite, while it's limited, there is more statistical data that says, if you have a prenup, you're less likely to get a divorce. Again, doesn't mean that you won't one way or the other, But it goes back to that idea that people think that having the conversations or signing the document propels you into the divorce stratosphere in some shape or form, and it's absolutely not true. So that's one piece. The other thing as far as how it can make a marriage better, it goes back to this idea of financial transparency and communication. So because the process requires so much disclosure. And you do, again, in order for it to be valid, you have to be honest. You can't hide assets. So you have, in order for this to make sense, you have to go into it with the right intentions. But having those conversations forces you or requires you to communicate about expectations. It can be as simple as Are we merging all of our bank accounts or are we not? Are we going to have joint accounts, separate accounts, or hybrid approach, which happens to be my preference, you do what you feel comfortable with, but you can have a conversation about that. And you can include that in the document should you choose to, but you can also talk about different things that will impact your marriage. And of course, impact your divorce That will be essential to getting a better understanding of how your partner thinks about money and how they want to approach it. Maybe you don't know that your soon to be spouse has family trust or family inheritance that you didn't know anything about. And so again, that level of transparency can prepare you and give you an understanding of who you are marrying and what you're getting yourself into. So when you have couples that are looking at it from a selfish perspective and they're like you're not going to get any of my money. You can't have this. And I'm not playing spousal support and I'm not doing this. And everything is no. Negative. Mine, mine, mine. Now I'm learning more about this person that I'm supposed to be. Spending my life with and building my life with and maybe that's a red flag or pinkish flag. It could be an opportunity for you to learn more, but I don't see the harm in having more information when you're going into such a huge, Contract with someone and then being able to make informed decisions as a couple about how you're going to manage your money and how you're going to manage your lives together. I just don't see the harm in that.
Ryan Kalamaya:For someone that wants to learn more, let's say Melanie Wolfe is out there listening. Nikki, How does your firm, can you maybe talk about your work and what you do with women in particular and why that matters for premarital agreements or divorce?
Nikki Tucker:Yeah, and Melanie is stay at home, right? I'm trying to make sure I remember Melanie's stats.
Ryan Kalamaya:Yes, most of the time Melanie is a stay at home mom, you working in helping breadwinner Melanie so Melanie can be any sort of iteration and you can maybe talk about, How that matters to the work that you do.
Nikki Tucker:And you made a really good point. So I primarily work with female bretwinners, so working women, but I do want to call attention to something. So if Melanie happens to be a stay at home mom or stay at home wife, or is planning to be, as they're going into the marriage stay at home, then that's a circumstance where I would advise and guide Melanie to have a prenup conversation. One of the reasons is when we think about protection, there is a level of financial insecurity that comes with not being the money spouse when you are going through a divorce. So when you're married and it's fine, and everything's love and it's not a big deal. But when you're the non money spouse, It presents a really deep level of insecurity because your life is going to change drastically. So even though I don't primarily work with women who are stay at home moms, stay at home wives, I understand it. And I think that is a particular segment of the population. That needs to have an understanding of their money situation and what they're getting themselves into. And then I just call Ryan and say, Ryan, this is someone you need to talk to. But when I'm working directly with clients. And they're thinking about going into a marriage or even thinking about divorce. One of the things that is really important is to make sure they understand their own financial picture. And so pre divorce, it's going to be important. We have a digital program that assists with that and allow someone to understand what to expect when they're going through the divorce process. Costs and mistakes that they can avoid when going through the divorce process and the financial transparency and how to get organized so that they can keep costs down and know the documents that are required. The information that they need to disclose and then what to expect when we get to settlement discussion. So that's pre divorce. Post divorce, it's about making sure that you start your new financial life as strong as possible. And so that means we're taking a full inventory. of exactly where you stand post divorce. So that when you go into another marriage or another relationship, even if you decide to live with someone, I also believe in cohabitation agreements, but that's a different story. But whether you decide to get remarried or live with someone, you have a very clear picture. of what you have, what you own, what you owe. Okay. How you want things to grow and how intentional you want to be with your finances and making sure that you're protecting yourself now that you are no longer partnered. So that's what we do.
Ryan Kalamaya:And, we talked about the change in demographics and change in, in cultural kind of expectations, certainly women in the workforce is continuing to change. We're seeing more and more female executives female breadwinners and, to the extent that the Avatar of Melanie. It is somewhat anachronistic in terms of that she's the stay at home mom, because it just, now it's becoming more common that there's two incomes or the female is the one that is the primary breadwinner. So I'm really. Grateful for the service that you're providing Nikki and the time and insights. And so if anyone is interested, whether they're interested in learning more about, prenups in your perspective or learning about money, encourage listeners to, to check out your firm and we'll have link links to the show notes, but until next time, thanks for joining us on Divorce at Altitude. Thanks for listening or watching this short lesson on the Divorce Ude podcast. If you found this helpful, please leave a review or share with a friend. It does help for others that are going through or thinking about a Divorce in Colorado. If you want to find out more information, Please visit Kalamaya Law or Divorce at Altittude dot com and that's K A L A M A Y A law. Remember, this is educational information, it's not intended to be legal advice. Please consult with an attorney about the particulars of your case. We're happy to answer questions. Feel free to give us a call at(970) 315-2365.