Thriving Through Chaos: Productivity and Financial Resilience in Divorce with Karen McMahon | Episode 224 Artwork

Divorce at Altitude: A Podcast on Colorado Family Law

Award-winning Colorado divorce attorneys, Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha, provide an approachable, insider view to divorce, parenting, relationships, and breakups. Episodes will include conversations with experts such as custody evaluators, CPAs, mediators, and family law judges. Listeners can expect to receive tips, tactics, and a frank conversation about some of life's toughest topics. Many people think that divorce is like climbing a mountain. Ryan and Amy have guided countless clients to the summit, and they share their weekly thoughts on divorce at altitude.

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Divorce at Altitude: A Podcast on Colorado Family Law

Thriving Through Chaos: Productivity and Financial Resilience in Divorce with Karen McMahon | Episode 224

December 19, 2024 • Caitlin Geary

In this insightful episode, host Ryan Kalamaya is joined once again by Karen McMahon, a seasoned divorce coach and host of the Journey Beyond Divorce podcast. Together, they explore how personal growth and financial resilience can empower individuals during the divorce process, particularly for high-achieving executives and entrepreneurs.

Episode Highlights:

The Role of a Divorce Coach: Karen explains how divorce coaches support clients in managing emotional turbulence, clarifying priorities, and maintaining productivity during high-stakes divorces.
Setting Boundaries for Co-Parenting and Shared Spaces: Learn how to establish temporary shared parenting arrangements and negotiate boundaries in shared living situations to reduce conflict.
Financial Expectations and Transparency: Discover the importance of working with financial experts to gain clarity, manage complex financial disclosures, and set realistic expectations for both parties.

Key Discussions:

Choosing the Right Team: Karen and Ryan discuss the unique roles of attorneys, financial experts, and divorce coaches, offering guidance on selecting the best professionals for your specific needs.
Delegating Effectively: Tips for managing time and costs during the divorce process by leveraging the expertise of your team while focusing on high-priority goals.
Navigating Negotiations: Insights into why divorce negotiations differ from boardroom deals and how to maintain emotional intelligence, ask the right questions, and approach discussions with curiosity rather than judgment.

Practical Takeaways:

Use B.I.F.F. for Communication: Keep messages brief, informative, firm, and friendly to avoid escalating conflicts.
Establish Priorities: Clarify non-negotiables and areas of flexibility to streamline decision-making and negotiations.
Pause Before Reacting: Create a buffer before responding to emotionally charged communications to avoid impulsive reactions.

Whether you’re in the early stages of divorce or navigating complex negotiations, this episode is packed with actionable advice to help you stay focused and resilient. Be sure to check out Karen’s other appearances on Divorce at Altitude in Episodes 55, 119, and 143 for more expert insights.

What is Divorce at Altitude?

Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha provide tips and recommendations on issues related to divorce, separation, and co-parenting in Colorado. Ryan and Amy are the founding partners of an innovative and ambitious law firm, Kalamaya | Goscha, that pushes the boundaries to discover new frontiers in family law, personal injuries, and criminal defense in Colorado.

To subscribe to Divorce at Altitude, click here and select your favorite podcast player. To subscribe to Kalamaya | Goscha's YouTube channel where many of the episodes will be posted as videos, click here. If you have additional questions or would like to speak to one of our attorneys, give us a call at 970-429-5784 or email us at info@kalamaya.law.

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DISCLAIMER: THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS ON THIS PODCAST IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL ADVICE. CONTACT AN ATTORNEY IN YOUR STATE OR AREA TO OBTAIN LEGAL ADVICE ON ANY OF THESE ISSUES.

0:02

Hey everyone. I'm Ryan Kalamaya. And I'm Amy Goscha. Welcome to the Divorce at Altittude, a podcast on Colorado family law. Divorce is not easy. It really sucks. Trust me, I know. Besides being an experienced Divorce attorney, I'm also a Divorce client. Whether you or someone considering Divorce or a fellow family law attorney, listen in for weekly tips and insight into topics related to Divorce co-parenting. And separation in Colorado.

Ryan Kalamaya: 0:33

Welcome back to another episode of Divorce at Altitude. This is Ryan Kalamaya. Today, we're going to be diving into the intersection of personal growth as well as financial resilience during a divorce. And I'm thrilled to welcome back Karen McMahon. She has been on the podcast several times before. Indeed, she is the guest of one of our most popular episodes ever, and that was called Divorcing a Narcissist, Codependency, Setting Boundaries, and Co Parenting with a Difficult Ex. That's episode 55. She has also been featured in episode 119 and 143. And the titles of those episodes are The Essential Recipe for Finally Leaving Your High Conflict Marriage, as well as Navigating Divorce Setting Boundaries and Co Parenting. If you're interested in anything that Karen says or want to listen more feel free and highly encourage you to check out those episodes. But before I go on Karen, welcome back.

Karen McMahon: 1:34

Thank you. Thank you so much for that introduction. I forgot I was on that many times. That's beautiful.

Ryan Kalamaya: 1:40

Indeed. For listeners that haven't heard those episodes or the intros for, who you are, you're a seasoned divorce coach. You are also the host of another podcast Journey Beyond Divorce. Anything else that you want listeners to understand before we dive into our topic about who you are and what makes you tick?

Karen McMahon: 2:04

Thanks. I think I'll just say that I've been at this for 14 years. I have a team of coaches from coast to coast. We specialize in complex high conflict divorce and high net divorce. We we really strategize with the team. People on the practical end of things. And I think so many people think of attorney when they get emotionally distraught and yet there is so much day to day emotional upset that we just guide and strategize and give people tools and guidance for, and and I'm excited to be here and chat about today's topic.

Ryan Kalamaya: 2:37

Divorce can be certainly an all encompassing storm, especially for executives and business owners juggling high stakes careers and complex divorce proceedings. Eric Wolf our hypothetical divorce client has the kind of avatar and his wife, Melanie, they certainly fit that mold in terms of the business executive and the complex cases that you typically deal with. Before we dive into the early stages of the divorce and what people should keep in mind in terms of personal growth and financial resiliency, can you maybe set the groundwork about what, a divorce coach does for an executive and, and with in mind the kind of first part that we're going to talk about with being productive.

Karen McMahon: 3:29

Yeah, absolutely. I think that one of the things people don't realize is it's virtually impossible to be on your A game when you're going through a high conflict or a complex divorce. There are so many moving pieces, and so especially for the C suite executive, the high earning entrepreneur, or anyone who's high achieving in any industry there are, you're being pulled in so many directions, right? And so there's everything from gathering the complex finances to a lot of people are very concerned about their children, right? And that's usually finances and the kids are the two huge emotional tugs. But here you are. Time is your, probably your most valuable asset. And as you and I know, divorce can be such an incredible time suck. And, it could be anything from wrangling with your spouse, dealing with a lack of boundaries and a lot of emails or texts or accusations or threats that you've been the high earning spouse. And so you don't deserve the kids and all of these things. And what I say to people is if you've ever downloaded a big program on your computer and every other program on the computer like glitches and it's slow and it's not working, that's what happens in our brains, right? So you've got this new program, which is, oh my God, this huge change is coming. And all of these things that you're worried about, it's very hard to attend to the day to day. As coaches, we really support you again, really helping you to understand what's going on emotionally, whether it's the grieving or just the fear and the friction, as well as All of those decisions, because they're both the small, nuanced decisions of even how do I tell my spouse to the how do I negotiate custody or I want 50 50, but could I even handle 50 50? So all of those things, we show up as a sounding board to help you make the best decisions based on your values, your priorities, and your circumstances.

Ryan Kalamaya: 5:32

I always joke with clients that They, when they first hired me that often will develop a good relationship, but as much as they may like me as a person they still, it's not fun and it's a time suck for them and they could be doing something, whether it be skiing or working on their business. Whatever they are addressing it is going to take a backseat to the divorce. The analogy, when I hear you talk, Karen is, I remember before I had my first child, everyone talked about the lack of sleep and it was building and then Sure enough, when I got into it there were definitely days when I was sleep deprived. I was at work and very distracted about whatever was going on. And it can be that level of distraction for someone going through a divorce. So let's start there and talk about parenting. When it comes to shared parenting and shared living spaces, how can couples set clear boundaries early on to reduce conflict during the divorce?

Karen McMahon: 6:41

Yeah and this is going to be depending on I like to say how goes the marriage, so goes the divorce. So if you've had a really contentious marriage where you haven't been able to really negotiate anything or reconcile anything, this is going to be much harder. If on the other hand, you have a more standard divorce where you just disagree, this'll be a little bit easier. And so in the early stages, I encourage clients even before they hire their attorney, knowing How to tell your spouse, how to talk to the children and how to create boundaries and guidelines within the household. Things are going to change. So for instance are you going to continue to sleep in the master bedroom? Is there someplace else that like, I ended up moving to the attic. I have clients who've moved to the guest bedroom, to the finished basement. And so do you move? Does your spouse move? These are all things to think about and to negotiate. And then a The other thing is the less moneyed spouse or the stay at home spouse has been doing the laundry, doing the cooking, doing the shopping. So what changes there? Does anything change? And how do you negotiate that so that you don't have an expectation that hasn't been discussed, but rather your, Creating agreements, if you can create agreements early on in the process, just in terms of what's going on in the household, it is going to be easier for you to start negotiating when you get into those more complex and triggering topics. And so that early stage. is really informative. It's good information. It's God, I can't even agree to who gets the common living space at a given time or or other boundaries that we're going to set. And then I think those early stages, I always encourage people Do the temporary shared parenting as early as possible. And what happens is the stay at home or the lesser money spouse truly believes that the other partner who hasn't been as much of a parent can't. I have seen that for 14 years because he or she didn't, she can't. I was also, that was my situation too. I thought that. And so that's not necessarily true. And so whether you want to confirm that or ease your mind, when you create temporary shared parenting early on, you do a number of things. You get really good information. The money spouse may want 50 50. And then go wait a second. I'm working at night. I travel. I have all of these responsibilities. My heart wants 50 50, but can I, and is that best for the kids? I can just sit them with a nanny so that I get my 50 50. All of these questions are answered early on before you're even negotiating the custody if you could agree on a temporary shared parenting and agree This is a transition. Let's figure it out. Let's keep the children centric in this. And then the kids too get to begin to experience there's a change coming. And while we're all living under the same roof, maybe there's still a change happening. And I get to spend time with mommy and time with daddy.

Ryan Kalamaya: 9:47

Yeah. And I think at least in my experience, I a hundred percent agree with you. There's that. tension in what the status quo was during the marriage and Eric expecting Melanie to do his laundry, to cook him dinner, but then resenting that she expects more parenting time or she takes the kids to the doctor's appointment. Now, all of a sudden, his divorce lawyer might be saying, you need to know the names of your kids teachers. You may not, he may not have known that. And so he starts encroaching and the lines get blurry. And I think that having, and being realistic too, of that there's going to be bumps in the road, but I think having a conversation, but trying to, as much as possible, set clear boundaries. That is going to reduce conflict and that kind of segues into the other aspect of the early stage that we're focusing on and that's the financial expectations. They can be a real landmine for conflict. So what's your advice, Karen, for getting clarity and setting realistic expectations with Eric Wolf's soon to be ex, Melanie?

Karen McMahon: 11:00

Yeah, and I think on the financial front, we have two different scenarios. We have the scenario where the money spouse or the spouse who handles the investments and most of the assets is not transparent and is not forthcoming. And so that, that's one issue. If you have someone who's transparent and forthcoming and you're the non moneyed spouse, you may have a ton of fear around money. And so I have seen so many. Clients just stick their head in the sand, which is the worst thing in the world you can do. So I would say regardless of which side of the table you're on, one of, as coaches, we ask, we rarely tell, we share information and we ask and we draw out what's best for you. The one time I tell, and I always tell is when it comes to the finances, you have to have a financial expert. It may be your CPA, it may be a financial advisor, a planner, but. Divorce is largely about the finances and the splitting of time and decision making with the children. And so that finance is so important. There's a lot of information you have to gather. The more complex it is, you don't even know where to look. You don't know what you're looking at. Two assets could have the exact same value, but they're actually not equal in value. They just look that way. And so when you have, A financial expert come in and support you from the finding and gathering to analyzing and forecasting. It really sets you up to be realistic and again at the end of the day, smooth divorces happen because there's good communication and there's compromise. And our job is to support people in being having a solid foundation on these fronts so that they have the confidence and security and expert guidance behind them to, to show up that way.

Ryan Kalamaya: 12:55

That brings us to the 2nd aspect and that's in the divorce process. And you mentioned having a financial expert and that brings us to having the right team. What should clients. Karen look for when they're looking at an attorney, a financial expert and or a coach. And I think people often don't understand that people have different roles. And so maybe as part of your, Explanation of what people should look for, maybe have focus on the, or at least lay the groundwork for who does what and what they should be looking for in that respective role.

Karen McMahon: 13:38

So I just was speaking to a new client and she was out interviewing attorneys and I said so what approach to divorce have you decided on? And she didn't know what I was talking about. And so I said do you understand that there's mediation, collaboration, and litigation? And she didn't. And so one of the things I say to people who come to me, especially when they're just getting off the fence, should I end or should I mend? I think I'll end, is you have to get educated. You have to understand number one, what the various approaches, and of course, there's arbitration for those really high net people who want to just stay totally out of the public. Helping them get the information to understand the different processes, and then Given your situation, I have so many clients who are coming out of these highly contentious, highly imbalanced relationships. And they're thinking, I'm going to mediate. I want to have an amicable divorce. And yet how goes the divorce? So goes, how goes the marriage? So goes the divorce. And there's been nothing amicable for years. And so being having realistic expectations, understanding the different processes, and then As Ryan, there are so many types of attorneys. And when someone meets with you it's I help clients what are the questions you want to ask? You're not just going and listening. What are the questions you want to ask? What are you looking for? When you walk into an office, what do you, so we strategize around the questions you want answered and what you're looking for, even in the way that the attorney answers your questions, has patience for you. Do you feel heard? Do you feel fear? Does it feel a little bit like the way you interact with your clients? Soon to be ex, that would be bad. A lot of people going into high conflict divorces want to hire a shark. And I've had so many clients who find themselves sandwiched between their high conflict spouse and their high conflict shark attorney. And it's it's double jeopardy. And so you really want to be careful about that. So that's on the legal front. And then on the financial front, I think it really depends on there's a number of different types of experts that you. You can work with having someone who is very knowledgeable, experienced and has experience in the divorce realm. There are a lot of financial advisors and planners who do very little divorce who say, I could do that. And it's very different when you get someone who can do that forecasting five, 10, 15, 20 years out, who can really come to you and help you be realistic about what you want. And. And, I've had a number of executives where their spouses had one, his spouse wanted whatever, like 40, 000 a month. And he was like, I don't even know how I would come up with that amount of money. And so she was so uneducated and unrealistic that it created a much longer. and contentious process. And so when you have the right expert and you understand what the numbers are, what's realistic. And then of course, with your attorney and your financial advisor, you're going to begin to get clear on your priorities and your values. And that's also where a coach comes in. So whether we're talking about the early stages, the finances, I'm not advising on finances, but I can help you. Put that list of questions together and get really clear on what you need to know about yourself so that you can have effective conversations with your attorney, with your financial planner. And then I think when it comes to the emotional piece, a lot of attorneys still think if you're having emotional issues, we're going to send you to a therapist. Therapists are fabulous. They help you heal the past. They help you connect the dots. But a lot of times you'll then go home and you'll have that same damn argument over and over again and you'll get equally as triggered and I like to say emotional grenades are thrown across the room, shrapnel is flying everywhere, the kids are getting hurt. The Divorce Coach actually helps you with tools and strategies. In the moment, whether it's having conversations that are effective and your communication, I was talking to someone yesterday, she was so passive aggressive, but she didn't know it. So we started talking about more effective communication. She was like, I'm being clear. I said, you're not being clear at all. And and boundaries. And usually if you're in a high conflict situation both parties are fairly boundary oblivious. And so understanding what is a boundary and how is it valuable and what is coming up from my childhood and my past to make me feel like I'm being bad or wrong. Or maybe I'm setting a boundary that's really an aggressive controlling approach and has nothing to do with boundaries, but I think I'm setting a boundary. We help with all of these types of issues.

Ryan Kalamaya: 18:31

Going back to the attorney selection, a couple things to throw out there for listeners to consider. Some of the best questions that I've received from prospective clients are, how are you different than, somebody else? Who do you work well with? Who do you not work well with? How would you characterize your approach? And those, have you ever dealt with, this particular issue or these? Issues and I think it's just that comfort level. Certainly there's going to be some people, Eric Wolf, he might be looking for a female because of the issues that could be involved. And that really is fact specific. I do think that gender can be certainly a factor that people need to consider. Amy and I have talked about that before. There's going to be, even though we have generally the same experience, she has a different style and obviously she's a female. Whereas, I am alpha dog male. And so that, those are the sorts of things that I think people need to consider. But, the other thing that I think I want to ask you, Karen, is that, we're talking about productivity and saving money. Lawyers can be very expensive. And but then the executive, Eric Wolf, he's got to go to work. But what are the things that Eric or Melanie, what should they be? Keeping in mind when they're delegating during the divorce. So what are the things that they should be like, hey, Ryan, or a divorce lawyer should be handling? What should they be going to a divorce coach? What how can they effectively use a financial expert when they are charging and by the hour how should Eric and Melanie think about their use of time and also not letting a case get away where it's, they're spending 300, 000 on attorneys, fees and experts. Where is that line of effectively using their time versus the cost of using these experts and attorneys and divorce coaches?

Karen McMahon: 20:36

Yeah, that's such a great question. I'm going to answer that from my vantage point. So when clients come to me, they'll tell me that they're calling their attorney about this thing, and and it's not really legal. And so what I advise clients is, look, your attorney is schooled in the legal. And they're really their zone of genius is negotiating, like that's what they do. So if you're really upset that your spouse dropped the kids off three hours late, you really need to ask yourself, how important is it? You might want to log it, you might want to add it to something you're talking about, but to get on the phone with your attorney is really like throwing money out. There's not much they're going to be able to do for you. And the same thing with the financial person. You want to be clear on what your questions are, what your concerns are, so that when you're sitting with each of these experts, you're dealing with their zone of genius, their very specific area of expertise and. As the coach, again, because we're asking and just drawing out of you, we end up being that sounding board. One of the things that I do a tremendous amount of is is creating a shared parenting plan. And a lot of times if you have a four year old, you're not thinking about when they're 14 or when you're running them around to sports or when they're going to college or when they're getting a car. And so there's this way where we can really get you to. Think about everything and put everything on the table. Then you go to your attorney and you're specifically talking about what your thoughts are and how does this align with my legal rights and how does it align with what the strategy you have for me and, am I staying within reasonable guardrails? And a lot of times I collaborate with the attorneys when I have a client that we share so that if A client who might be much more dug in and stuck with their attorney and angry at their attorney because so many clients project onto the attorney, right? Their frustration that attorney and I can have a conversation and I can coach them through that. And so so legal, financial, and then. Kind of everything else, whether it's what's happening day to day, week to week, whether it's the decision making you have to make, should I go back to work or shouldn't I go back to work? A lot of times we'll get asked questions and we'll say, you need to find out what your attorney has to say, but let's at least look at the various options so that when you have that conversation, you're fully equipped with facts, with your values and priorities and what you desire, and you're being heard. And I think that open minded piece is something that we're constantly, like most people going through divorce will have this very narrow perspective. And so stretching their perspective so that they understand the way I'm thinking about it. Is very limited and I want to be open minded about what my attorney, my financial person have to say.

Ryan Kalamaya: 23:37

Yeah. And from my perspective, a couple of things for people to consider in terms of how they effectively delegate 1 is, I think it really depends Eric. Wolf, if where he needs to take an assessment of where he is in that grieving process, it is just the inherent that there's going to be some emotional aspect and also taking an inventory of where Melanie is, if there's still a lot of emotional. then that divorce coach, the therapist, there needs to be, some aspect that they need to be more involved to help him work through that. And because going to me, I tell people, I'm a counselor, but I'm a counselor at law. I am not trained to deal with, the emotional aspects. I get it. I see it a lot, but coming to me for the emotional aspects is not. The most productive use of their time. I think it also is helpful for me to get as a divorce lawyer, to get priorities and understand where Eric, what are the high level. goals of Eric. Does he want to keep the house or is that, what are the kind of top three priorities? And they just need to understand that they're not, he or she is not going to get everything in the divorce. There's going to be compromise, but letting me know these are my Primary objectives, this is what I'm willing to compromise on and really thinking about each party's interests because that, as and we're going to turn to kind of negotiation and the boardroom versus the bedroom. Eric is undoubtedly a skilled negotiator. Most successful business people in Melanie could be, CC, C suite executive, but they need to really. Write a list of things that they want and maybe some solutions or, problems that they have with the other party and what the solutions are, and it could be financial, it could be, but really, I think that work is very important. Sending an email to me, scheduling a call. Setting an agenda that I think helps refine people's thinking and that can be done with someone like you Karen of bouncing because you're you're Charged or costs are going to be you know less and you're going to help people Use an attorney less and you know the financial expert it's working within a lawyer Figuring out what is important and how can we? You tie that in and I think that it's going to be more comfortable for the divorce lawyer working with a financial expert. It depends on if that is a retained expert or it is you know a joint expert, but you know switching gears a little bit I mentioned negotiation and the boardroom to the bedroom, how are people like Eric Wolf, if he's an executive, what is the unique aspect of a divorce and negotiation that Eric may not understand if he's been an experienced negotiator? Like why is negotiating with Melanie, why is that different?

Karen McMahon: 26:53

That's, it's such a great question and there are a number of different aspects to this. One is the level of emotion, like you were just talking grief, right? So when you're doing business, you might really want, the deal to work, but here you're dealing with A lot of emotion. You're dealing with your history, you're dealing with your fears, you're dealing with your concerns about your children. And then, the bottom line is there's a lot of finances that are split and there's a lot of emotions around that. So it's a much more emotionally charged negotiation in business. You could be like, I don't want to do this with you and you can get up and walk away, like you could walk away from negotiations. This is not a negotiation that you can walk away from. And and you may have a lot more leverage in your business negotiations than you do in this very tender, personal negotiation. And so it's of a very different flavor and a good negotiator can go in and they can have a strategy and they can be very assertive and very direct. And if you do that with your spouse, they're either going to shut down or blow up and it's going to harm the negotiations more than help it. And so I think that and for Melanie, you're, if you're negotiating with someone who, does it for a living and you're feeling so inept in comparison, you too need to, you, you need to shore up your skills, your understanding of communication. You have to have really a good relationship with your attorney so that you can cue that attorney. If you're at a four way table, like there's all of these things that go on. And honoring. That a divorce negotiation is so different and really taking a look at each of the areas where you are triggered or concerned or in fear or in fury, right? And screw her, she's not going to that doesn't work well either. And so understanding, and that's what we do. We walk people through each of these things. And I have to be honest, I have a lot of C suite executives who are who are men who have been in abusive relationships and that's a whole unique thing because as much as you know you want to get out and you want to protect the kids, there's also this oftentimes, I would say the vast majority of times this tenderness towards your spouse who might be traumatized or have mental health issues. And it just makes it very murky. And murky doesn't work well going through divorce. And so I think that the key here is the support of each of your experts and getting as crystal clear as you can. And to your point, I think that Ryan knowing what your non negotiables are what your must haves are and where you have flexibility, where you're willing to bend is vitally important. All right. And you and I have both seen this, that people like dig their heels in and spend thousands of dollars over things that aren't worth nearly that value. And and at the end of the day, the more hostility there is between the parents, the more the children lose out. And so we want to always keep that in the center.

Ryan Kalamaya: 30:19

Yeah, I've, the observation I have made several times on this podcast is that the Boardroom the chairman the kind of Eric Wolf, what makes him so successful often causes so much conflict in the divorce negotiation because he is so frustrated that he cannot walk out and he then gets reactive. And so I, a couple of kind of responses or tips is that don't send. An immediate text or email wait, Abraham Lincoln was famous. He was a lawyer before becoming president. He was famous for writing these scathing letters, and then he would wait and come back to his office and then throw it away in the trash. And just that process of writing the, the flaming the other side just getting it. Out of your system and it's cathartic. That is something that I recommend that people consider a way to date, unless it's truly urgent. The other kind of tendency that Eric Wolf or the C suite executive is talking down to Melanie and saying, this is why you need to do this. And I am so smart and you and they've Often been controlling of the finances and they've been successful and that's why there's enough money for them to Consider hiring experts and divorce coaches and lawyers, but then that same personality trait of that controlling Really can be counterproductive. And I think the final point is just asking questions Is and this is something I have been trying to work on more and more There was a Harvard Business Review article about how Asking questions and in particular, why, like, why does Melanie want the house? What is, why is that important to her? And when she explains that, then Eric has a much better understanding. She feels like she has some ownership in that negotiation. And so I think for both parties to ask why and what. Why are you coming from this position? I think that is something that is often missed and it's because there's so much emotional baggage, Karen, that have alluded to. And I think working through a divorce coach to, sift out the emotional, like it's not like. Why did you have an affair? That's not productive that, getting into when did you start having an affair that, that is not productive. It's more of, why do you want to have equal parenting time when, we've had this understanding or this agreement in the past, but I think working with a divorce coach to refine that, but it's something that. I think is often overlooked in the difference between boardroom and bedroom negotiations.

Karen McMahon: 33:23

I agree. I would love to add two things to what you're saying. One is Bill Eddy, who's, the king of high conflict has an acronym BIF Brief, Informative, Firm, and Friendly. If I tell you I've shared that with, there you go. When, so I would say you're talking about One thing, which is that triggered reaction, right? So you always want to create a pause. The pause might be an hour. It might be a day. It might be a little bit longer, but then also if you have to communicate I was just on the phone yesterday with a client and he was actually upset with his attorney and he sent me this message. page and a half letter. And so there was just a lot of complaining and ranting and when we boiled it down, we were able to say, this is my concern. Here are the three bullet points. This is how I would like to proceed. Let me know when you can speak. And it was BIF and even an attorney is going to react poorly when you're just slamming them. And so on the communication, take a pause, use BIF, brief, informative, firm, and friendly. And then to your point I would say curiosity on both sides. So often I have somebody who can afford the marital home, who wants to keep it, and being able to say, okay let's talk about why, and let's talk about how, and let's talk about what happens if it happens. If if you can't afford it and that way and as you're saying, what is it your spouse wants and how can we, instead of bringing judgment to everything, which I think, everybody comes packed with their judgment to, to pivot to curiosity. I know what she wants and she's just being, X, Y, and Z, as opposed to help me to understand and help me to understand is such a beautiful way to invite an open dialogue and curiosity. And when you can do this, a couple of things are going to happen. One is your divorce is going to be smoother. Your bill with your attorney is going to be lower. Your co parenting post divorce will be better if you use the. The pain of the divorce, the struggle of the divorce to transform the way you show up. You can't do anything about them. Don't control them. Don't tell them what to do. Keep your side of the street clean. And when you do that, you are really gifting your children and your own personal future. A much. More peaceful and pleasant future.

Ryan Kalamaya: 35:43

Karen, this has been an incredibly enlightening conversation and your strategies for staying productive, assembling the right team in the navigating negotiations with intention. Really helpful. For listeners that want to find out a little bit more about your work, where can they find you? And what are the kind of programs or services that you offer if Eric or Melanie have, heard something that really resonates with them and they want to be more productive? Where can they find you?

Karen McMahon: 36:14

As podcasters, we have the Journey Beyond Divorce podcast. So that's always a good place to go and listen. We offer a rapid relief call, a free coaching call to anybody who is interested in learning more about divorce coaching and specifically how we work. I have a team of a half a dozen coaches from coast to coast, and we have we have a support group, a virtual support group. And then I have a new program that I've enrolled this year, which is an elite divorce concierge program. And that is really for the Erics of the world, the individuals where time is your greatest asset and between collecting finances and figuring out all the decision making and, Ensuring that you're communicating and setting boundaries and negotiating well in the whole kit and caboodle the concierge program is this handholding coming alongside supporting you in ways that you don't even imagine that you need support. And so if someone's interested in that they can reach out directly to Karen at journeybeyonddivorce. com and we can have a conversation and see if that might be a good fit for them.

Ryan Kalamaya: 37:22

Yeah, I think that the productivity in people may have, they might have a personal assistant, they might have a an office, manager or a family office. And sometimes people don't want to have the issues in the divorce kind of spill over and maybe that the PA We is actually, involved or they just want to separate that out. So I think it is something to consider for those people where, a divorce coach is going to understand the financial disclosures and why they're needed and other kind of aspects that are relevant for. The divorce, because they've been through it enough and certainly, our team for from paralegals. I'll have a conversation with Eric about, hey, you can download all your bank statements and go through all this. Or you can give me the, you can give my paralegal the username and password or some sort of release. And that's the level of service you can help, bridge. Bridge that gap because, that can be an incredible time suck just the kind of legwork involved in divorce. But Karen, again, thank you for joining us. And for listeners, they're more they're interested in learning more about Karen. We'll have a link to her website and her podcast in the show notes, but until next time, thank you for joining us on Divorce at Altitude. Thanks, Ryan. Bye

Karen McMahon: 38:37

bye.

Ryan Kalamaya: 38:40

hey everyone. This is Ryan again. Thank you for joining us on Divorce at Altittude. If you found our tips, insight, or discussion helpful, please tell a friend about this podcast. For show notes, additional resources or links mentioned on today's episode, visit Divorce at Altittude dot com. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen in. Many of our episodes are also posted on YouTube. You can also find Amy and. Law or 9 7 0 3 1 5 2 3 6 5. That's aaa.