Divorce-Gasmic: Transforming Divorce into a Constructive Journey with Karen McNenny | Episode 226

In this episode, renowned divorce mediator and therapist Karen McNenny joins Ryan and introduces her innovative approach to divorce, which she calls “divorce-gasmic.” Karen emphasizes transforming divorce from a destructive event into a constructive process, encouraging us to rethink how we view the end of a marriage.

We explore:

• The societal fears that keep couples trapped in unhappy relationships
• Positive co-parenting practices that celebrate children’s milestones post-separation
• The roles of divorce professionals, such as lawyers and consultants, in guiding clients through emotional challenges while focusing on legal clarity
• The complexities of dating during divorce and managing differing paces in new relationships
• Strategies for blending families and introducing new partners, particularly when children are involved
• Managing new relationships on social media and ensuring children’s well-being is prioritized

Karen shares insights on fostering family harmony, emotional resilience, and the importance of communication and mediation to ensure a smooth transition through and beyond divorce. You can get more information and listen to Karen on her own podcast, the Good Divorce Show™.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone navigating or contemplating divorce, offering practical advice for maintaining family stability and prioritizing emotional health.

What is Divorce at Altitude?

Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha provide tips and recommendations on issues related to divorce, separation, and co-parenting in Colorado. Ryan and Amy are the founding partners of an innovative and ambitious law firm, Kalamaya | Goscha, that pushes the boundaries to discover new frontiers in family law, personal injuries, and criminal defense in Colorado.

To subscribe to Divorce at Altitude, click here and select your favorite podcast player. To subscribe to Kalamaya | Goscha's YouTube channel where many of the episodes will be posted as videos, click here. If you have additional questions or would like to speak to one of our attorneys, give us a call at 970-429-5784 or email us at info@kalamaya.law.

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DISCLAIMER: THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS ON THIS PODCAST IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL ADVICE. CONTACT AN ATTORNEY IN YOUR STATE OR AREA TO OBTAIN LEGAL ADVICE ON ANY OF THESE ISSUES.

Transcript

Ryan Kalamaya (4s):
Welcome back to another episode of Divorce at Altitude. This is Ryan Cal. This week we're gonna be talking about new relationships and Dvo Gasmic and that's a coin or that's a term coined by my guest Karen McNaney. She is a mediator divorce coach and therapist dedicated to transforming how families navigate divorce. She has her own podcast through her, it's called The Good Divorce Show, and that is based on her good divorce experience business and she's gonna tell us a little bit more about that. But she really focuses on helping couples not only get divorced, but also learn how to maintain healthy post-divorce relationships, especially when children are involved.

Ryan Kalamaya (54s):
She's been doing it for more than 25 years and she focuses in particular on co-parenting, financial planning and relationship literacy, which is something that we're really gonna focus on. And for our Colorado listeners it they will, many of her kind of experiences and various stories are gonna resonate because she lives in Missoula, Montana where she grew up with her family and her dog and she enjoys the Rocky Mountains just a little bit north of us. But Before I go on, Karen, welcome to the show.

Karen McNaney (1m 27s):
Thanks Ryan. Really happy to be here. Looking forward to the chat.

Ryan Kalamaya (1m 32s):
Yeah. So how did you get into divorce land in terms of working in the industry and launching your podcast and other aspects related to divorce?

Karen McNaney (1m 43s):
Yeah, like most people I think working in the space, except not you, we've had some personal experience of divorce, which is what happened for me 13 years ago. Our kids were five and seven, they're now 18 and 20. And Michael And I have taken our kids from kindergarten to college and done all the different phases and, and honestly to, to really put it in a succinct fashion, I built the business I was looking for when I was seeking my own divorce journey. And as we looked ahead, there was one option that seemed to be, you know what happened to most people, it's destructive, it it's full of despair, you attain a lot of debt, write all the Ds, and there's one person to call and that's a lawyer.

Karen McNaney (2m 30s):
And all due respect, Ryan to you and your colleagues, I agree lawyers are really good at getting us divorced, but there is a lot more to the story. And in, in my bio, you mentioned over 25 years of doing this work, which I wanna clarify, I've been working in the space as a business consultant. I have spent most of my career in corporate America helping to bring leaders into a more active role of servant leadership versus command and control human behavior and relationship expertise in the workplace. After the pandemic, it really gave me an opportunity to dive into something that I've been passionate about for 20 years, which is how families divorce and can we do it differently and how can we protect the relationship?

Karen McNaney (3m 20s):
I often say your marriage might be ending but not your relationships. If you have kids, that's forever. And my job is to work on behalf of the kids, to keep their parents from doing dumb stuff while they're going through the divorce so that they all can have a really joyful family experience as they move from graduation to grand babies. You're both gonna be there, let's make it better.

Ryan Kalamaya (3m 47s):
But you mentioned graduation and that's one of the examples or things that I talk to clients about is asking 'em to picture themselves at the high school graduation if kids are involved and what does that look like? Because we've all seen Karen, the circumstances where the spouse is that one spouse doesn't even go because they can't breathe the same air. And so I ask people, what is it that you want that to look like? And in the moment they're very often angry and emotional, so it's really hard for them to picture that. 'cause it depends on the ages of the kids.

Ryan Kalamaya (4m 28s):
You went through your experience when they were five and seven and my kids are 10 and eight, so that would be really hard for me to picture. And that is something that I think is really important. But you also talked about new relationships and the newness and the relationships. So what does divorce Gasmic, what is that?

Karen McNaney (4m 49s):
The orgasmic is the stage at which we start to emerge into our new life and res singled. And if I can, Ryan, I just wanna comment on, as you described it, some of these really hard stories where parents can't even be in the same room. They no longer can celebrate their kids together. And And I would just say listeners, especially for those of you who might be writing defense of divorce, which I think many of us do for a long time, we often know our truth long before we speak it. And there's someone in that relationship who's already thinking about, what if I were to exit? Can I afford a home? What will happen with the kids? What, right. We start ruminating about it.

Karen McNaney (5m 31s):
And I think one of the big errors, If you will, where we get it wrong is we stay too long. And, and for me, I can certainly say I was paralyzed with the fear of divorce, which was greater than the bummer that my marriage was eroding. And what I would remind folks, and this is a little bit of a paradigm shift from where I'm coming and as a lawyer, I'm curious what you would say to this, but it is my belief that divorce exists to improve the primary relationship, not make it worse. If you wanna make it worse, stay in your bad marriage, it's probably gonna get worse.

Karen McNaney (6m 11s):
And so we stay rather than leaving when maybe the exit ramp becomes apparent until it really is bad so we can justify the exit. And so that's where I think we get in trouble and a lot of that damage happens. So I just wanna say to those of you listening, and I've been there done that, there's a lot of social shame and isolation that comes with divorce. And again, we so often only present one picture in media and publicity and TVs and movies, which is, you better lawyer up and fight for every penny. I'm like, you know what, let's start somewhere else. Let's get a different starting point. So I just wanted to comment on how we get in that mess in the first place.

Karen McNaney (6m 53s):
And so when I bring clients on, we start from the moment of decision, that's my ideal client. Okay, we see that we're in a hole, we're gonna stop digging and help us to move on. And then I carry that family all the way through moving to two homes. Maybe they're nesting for a time, maybe they're having to look at retirement and certainly the settlement. But a lot of just tool building about reinventing their relationship. Again, not ending it, but reinventing and, and like a renovation project, we're gonna renovate this family, you're still a family, but we're gonna move you into two homes and how to exist in that place.

Karen McNaney (7m 36s):
And always, one of the things that that comes up, we hope it doesn't come up unknowingly, but new relationships start to show up. And it's possible that some of those new relationships were even existing before the marriage was complete. So that that reentry is what I refer to as the de orgasmic, oh my gosh, I'm gonna date other people. I'm gonna have sex with different people than my spouse. I thought that I had come to the end. And an energy, sometimes people are going back to the gym, they're buying new clothes, they're truly reinventing themself. And in that spirit, I think there's some cautionary tales as well.

Ryan Kalamaya (8m 20s):
Yeah, we'll get into that. 'cause I've certainly seen that from the sidelines and, and you've mentioned a couple things that I wanted to respond to. And that is I, as a divorce lawyer, am aware of the stereotype on, on lawyers and specifically divorce lawyers. So I always have to be very careful when someone comes to me. I can't tell them whether they should or shouldn't get a divorce. I'm financially incentivized to recommend that and I'm aware of that. And so instead what I talk about is what the kind of legal landscape is for them.

Ryan Kalamaya (9m 1s):
And also a lot of people, Karen, I'm sure you hear this a lot, is that they will stay in a marriage for the kids. And the research is very clear on that. People that are in a dysfunctional shitty marriage, their kids end up having a variety of issues and need to think about what sort of modeling that they are doing for their kids. And our kids look up to us as models of what do we tell the truth and what is love and what is relationship. And if we have a dysfunctional marriage that is showing our kids, that is, it's normalizing it.

Ryan Kalamaya (9m 49s):
And so a lot of people will be reluctant and the but kids, they're gonna be okay after a divorce. And it's all about that new relationship. And I tell people, I have seen people who are, you know, they are happier, they have a much healthier relationship with the the spouse as that they're better off as co-parents as opposed to partners. But I have also seen the people that have gone through divorce and everything was fine. And then just as an example, we have our hypothetical divorce clients, Karen, Eric, and Melanie Wolf.

Ryan Kalamaya (10m 31s):
Eric goes and finds a younger, cooler, better looking version of Melanie and then shit goes completely off the rails. So tell us, what are the cautionary tales? What are the things that people should consider either in that scenario or something wi involving new relationships?

Karen McNaney (10m 54s):
Yeah, so let's start with the starting gate, If you will, which to me, I don't, again, as the divorce consultant and coach, I don't have an opinion of when you should or shouldn't start dating. I have an opinion that you should both be in agreement about that. 'cause you're right, the shit hits the fan. And I just had a client where this happened. We were about, within the first month, I usually like to have this conversation with clients, which is where is the starting gate? And someone in the couple might think the gates are open for dating, as soon as we said the word divorce and we called a lawyer or we called a Karen and we're moving out, someone else might say, once we're not living in the same space, that's our starting place now.

Karen McNaney (11m 38s):
You can go date, others might be all the way at the other extreme, when the ink is dry on the divorce papers, that's when we can start dating. And usually just by having the conversation, I can get a couple to come to an agreement. And to me, again, it's what is the agreement? So there's no surprises because it's the surprises, it's the spouse who stumbles into your Facebook page or finds a thing or sees the phone. And we're already not at our best as we go through this. And then they're already, I can't believe it, they can't wait. And it stirs up and really pokes the bear of the process. So that's the first thing is come to an agreement of where the starting gate, where you give each other permission in your old life as spouses.

Karen McNaney (12m 26s):
Now I know there's some people who already opened the barn doors and there might have been infidelity. That's a podcast of a different day and, and there's challenges in that. But in terms of a fresh start, be in agreement, when is the barn door open for both of us to begin dating?

Ryan Kalamaya (12m 42s):
Aaron, I've got a question on that because it, in my observation, people are grieving for their marriage and there's the five stages of grief, and I've gone through that. My sister died at a very young age and that you said, I've never gone through a divorce, but that was that I, I really experienced that and people go through it. And my observation is that people are in different, often different stages of that grieving process when they're going through divorce. So how should people think about if one person, let's say Melanie, she was done two years ago. She's like you said, yes, she's she's been ruminating on it. She's, and she is.

Ryan Kalamaya (13m 22s):
I'm out. I'm looking for someone that's more supportive, more emotionally attentive to me. And Eric is meanwhile saying, no, let's figure this out. Let's patch this. Let's go to counseling. And she says, no, I'm ready to start looking for other people. What if there's a disparity in where those two people are out? They, they can't come to an agreement. So how should people think about that situation? Should Melanie just nevertheless go on, or is it not worth it in the, because it's going to cause problems in the divorce?

Karen McNaney (13m 56s):
I heard two different things there. One, no, we're not leaving our marriage, we're going to marriage counseling. We're let's patch this together. That's a different fork in the road. That's, that's discernment counseling, trying to discern whether we're in or out. If once the decision is made, then I get you, then we have to decide. And people are in different stages. And when you're the person leaving versus the person being left, that's a very different experience. And like you said, the person leaving their train might have left years ago. And I talk about that And I talk about how can we bring compassion to your co-parent, to your partner that they didn't even know the train was sitting in the station, let alone that it was already down the track with you.

Karen McNaney (14m 37s):
So bringing them on. And it also might change over time. I try to talk to a couple and there might be someone who's not ready to see their spouse date or whatnot. So we, so then we put some other boundaries around that. So If you can get an agreement about where the starting gate is, and if you're not, then that's where my skills and mediator comes into play. Okay, we need an agreement. Can we revisit this in two months, in three months, depending on kind of the trajectory. And so then the next boundary is that we usually do not date publicly while we're going through the divorce. And then also how we involve the kids. So my advice always is that even if you're in agreement, great, we can all start dating.

Karen McNaney (15m 23s):
We're free even if the paper doesn't get signed for another year or two years, which sometimes that can happen. I, I try not to ever create that situation where people are languishing and lingering. I just think there's opportunity for more damage to be done to the long-term relationship when you stick in the battle and being really discreet at that time. And I have one person who's, I'm, I am dating someone And I, I need to tell my kids. And I'm like, no, you don't. I'm like, but I feel so deceptive. I'm, I'm lying to them. I'm like, you know what? First of all, parents lie to their kids all the time. We can start with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and then move on to other things that, that are not kid business, they're adult business.

Karen McNaney (16m 7s):
So I think there's a real distinction between being deceptive and being discreet. And this is a time for discretion not only with your children but publicly. And it's a way of honoring that other person that you're not gonna go flouncing around your new relationship where everybody, like you said, we're grieving, we're wounded, and those words are not too strong. That is exactly what is going on. It is the death of a family, it's the death of a story. And I try to remind people as we're moving through a good divorce experience, there's no need to go back and pick the scab of old wounds. All it's gonna do is bleed and ooze and probably get infected.

Karen McNaney (16m 49s):
Our goal is to not pick those old wounds and actually let things heal. And then we're left with a scar. Most of us who have scars we're like, oh my gosh, there's a story about this one, let me tell you, and that we came through something difficult and we have a remnant and a reminder. But it doesn't bleed. It doesn't ooze, it's not gonna get infected. And actually real scars, the nerve endings are even dead If you push on 'em or poke on 'em, they don't even hurt. And, and that's that goal of becoming indifferent towards your former spouse, which isn't to say I don't care, it just means that I don't get poked in the same way. I don't get elevated.

Karen McNaney (17m 29s):
So being discreet during that time, actually through my therapeutic lens, what I recommend is that anyone who's going through a divorce and dating at the same time should have a giant warning sign across their forehead that says unstable human proceed with caution. Because there is something to be said therapeutically and, and how we operate as humans. That one thing needs to come to an end before the next thing begins. And often it even means once that divorce is done, we probably have some reflection time to do of our own. So it's not a rinse and repeat what were, what was happening in my marriage that I don't wanna repeat again, why did I select this person?

Karen McNaney (18m 16s):
What wounds did I have for my childhood, my family of origin that I was trying to satisfy through my marriage that didn't work. So it might be a time for some one-on-one therapy, some one-on-one coaching, reflection, retreats, whatever it might be, so that you're really clear when you go back into the dating game or at least long term, what's gonna work for you? What's not gonna work for you? Maybe there's new boundaries. So that's a little bit to think about of that introduction. Now the orgasmic part comes because as I say, a girls gotta eat and there can be great delight in new relationships.

Karen McNaney (18m 56s):
And even as you're going through divorce, it's not the time to probably make big commitments with another person and that discretion, but there might be touch therapy, we light up, we're probably head over heels again, remembering that when we're falling in love and we are falling, our brains are full of so many drugs of oxytocin and adrenaline and excitement. And it takes 18 to 24 months for that rose colored glasses to actually start to root itself in reality. So that's just some cautionary tales to the adults in your own journey of becoming res singled and how you might repartner in your life.

Ryan Kalamaya (19m 40s):
Yeah, a couple points to, to make on that, and that is that I, the great Divorce ISN in particular, I have seen where people have been often with another, their spouse for 20, 30 years. And I will never forget one of my clients, he started dating again and he was like, I, I'm getting laid. And like he, they had hi, his wife and him had not had sex for 10 years. And so he had forgotten what that was like. And as you said, that can result in some cloudy judgment making. And that kind of brings me to the next topic.

Ryan Kalamaya (20m 21s):
And that is that I've certainly seen people that they assume that this new relationship's gonna work and they, that they could make financial compromises because they're assuming that they're gonna get remarried. And often you've got that honeymoon phase and it's been a long time since they've been involved in that. And they can make decisions in their divorce that can have often lifelong impacts. And it could be based on what they're experiencing, that newness, that orgasmic experience. And people need to be mindful of that.

Karen McNaney (20m 59s):
Absolutely. And it's exhilarating and intoxicating. The other thing that can happen, even if you're not looking for it, I really think people's sort of energy changes, especially once the divorce is over. But even through the process, you move into your own homes, you start to live this autonomous life. And I've had a lot of clients and And I warn them because if they're in a containment agreement with their spouse, like, we're not starting new relationship. We're j we're just gonna, we're gonna honor the ending of this together. But people are gonna be attracted to you because you have this new energy, you present differently. You're maybe not the somewhat what I call the eo. A lot of us turn into eore as our marriages are ending.

Karen McNaney (21m 40s):
Nothing is good, nothing will ever be good, I'll never be happy again, everything sucks. But then you start to see it's that orgasmic energy and people will be drawn to you. So you have to also watch out. And that doesn't mean you have to say no, you just have to recognize like things are gonna be shifting for you.

Ryan Kalamaya (22m 2s):
Yeah. And I think they, they need to keep in mind, I've, I frequently see people going through divorce and then they connect with other people going through a divorce 'cause they have this yes shared commonality and that can be, they're not, they don't feel so lonely. But yeah, I've also seen it, Karen, talk to me a little bit about having spec sex with the spouse that you are getting a divorce with. That is something where they're lonely and there's the kind of makeup sex or the, that it brings this kind of energy and it, it, it's contrary to what you were talking about before, but it is fairly common.

Karen McNaney (22m 42s):
Remarkably common. It's what I call the boomerang moment of the divorce. You're going out out and then suddenly, and I've seen couples, in fact I, I had a colleague who was saying, Karen, you might not be a very good divorce coach and consultant because people then start thinking that they should just stay married. I'm like, yeah, but that's just because I'm here for every conversation you have and you're getting along and you're learning new tools of communication. And so again, those rose colored classes can come on. And even if it's not, oh, let's get off the divorce train and save the marriage. Which I, to be clear, Ryan, I am pro-marriage, I am pro-family, I am pro-marriage counseling.

Karen McNaney (23m 24s):
Let's fight and save our marriages where possible. But when the exit ramp appears, then let's fight for the good divorce and put our energy there instead. So you have this surprise moment and it can be comforting. But another thing I do with my clients and because I work with both parents or, and not all my clients have kids, but my general process is to work with both parties. I just think that's when you get the best results because everybody's moving through this together. So just like we put up some boundaries about when does dating, right? When does those barn doors open? And we also talk about do we still hug?

Karen McNaney (24m 7s):
Do we hold hands? Is there still a bedroom that's ours? And again, talking about it preemptively just puts some boundaries. Now that doesn't mean those boundaries are also always honored, but what can happen is that there's one spouse who still is wanting to hug and to be close and to hold hands. And the other one is feeling like that doesn't feel right for me. So then it turns into a moment of rejection and that can do harm to the process. My first agreement with every couple is do no more harm. We will do no more harm to this future relationship. We've already done enough harm up to this point. So when we have the agreement ahead of time and everyone says, yeah, I don't think we should hug anymore at this time, that might change.

Karen McNaney (24m 53s):
But right now it feels confusing. It can be confusing to kids. A lot of families are nesting right now. Which for those not familiar, it just means both parents are still living in the same house. We have a really interesting real estate market that that moves from really low interest rates to high interest rates. Families are held hostage by their homes. We don't have a very friendly mortgage environment where people can assume loans or lease liability and then people lose homes because they can't afford a 7% when they had a two per. You get the deal. So there might be couples who are coming and going nesting under one roof, two bedrooms. And I have a client right now where they went to their kids, they had the big conversation, the hard conversation, we're getting divorced and then grandpa got cancer.

Karen McNaney (25m 37s):
So mom is off taking care of grandpa coming back and forth. Dad's still in the house. Family dinners are happening again, kids are probably experiencing a little bit of magical thinking, oh they're not really gonna get divorced. Look, we're still a family and they're probably gonna have to rinse and repeat and go back and pull that bandaid off again. Unfortunately. So it's unique to every couple. Again, my message to you listeners is to be clear up front, have the conversation so you don't get stuck in the awkward moment and you don't trigger a sense of rejection or betrayal, which can just kind of take things off course

Ryan Kalamaya (26m 20s):
To bring things full circle. And to put a wrap on this, Karen, talk to me a little bit about holidays and how people should navigate that with new relationships, with spending time with family, especially that first time that re recording this and we're entering holidays season. How should people think about it or where are the things that they should keep in mind

Karen McNaney (26m 47s):
Really, again, so important to be sensitive to. And, and If you don't mind, Ryan, I'm gonna go back one step, which is the introduction of new partners with kids and, and when to do that, how to do that and some best practices around that. So let's just presume you're on the other side of the divorce, Ryan got you across the finish line. The ink is dried, you're in your two functional homes and the family is functioning pretty well and you do start dating and you're meeting people. My recommendation, first of all, between the two of you, it's a don't ask don't tell situation. If you're outta state or you're not able to take the kids on a night, that other spouse, you don't need to, like, where are you going?

Karen McNaney (27m 30s):
What are you doing? Who are you doing it with? Nope, not any of your business anymore. And I wouldn't offer it up. So we make an agreement. Don't ask, don't tell. 'cause it's pain shopping to tell you the truth. And most of us it's, I don't want my former spouse back. I happily let them go, but I don't want that other person to have them either. And I certainly don't wanna see them happy. So it can be triggering and surprising when you do see your spouse with someone new discretion while dating, my recommendation is that your new relationship, the one that you think, this is it, and we're gonna integrate and bring them into the family. There's a six month clock.

Karen McNaney (28m 12s):
That relationship should establish itself before an introduction to the kids. And part of that is to prevent the swinging door of people coming and going. And most of us, like you, Ryan, you're nodding your head like, oh yeah, that's bad for kids. They meet people, they come and go and come and go. But the reality is that you are laying down the blueprint of your children's future relationships as it relates to attachment styles. So if there are people calming and going regularly through the house and maybe that new boyfriend or girlfriend also has kids and they, the kids start to attach, and especially young kids, that's their job.

Karen McNaney (28m 54s):
It's our job to attach, to connect with adults, to feel safe and to turn to those folks. And now all of a sudden they're gone again. And oh, maybe I really liked their son and, And I always wanted a big brother. And, and, and now we got really close, but oh, my mom broke up with him and and now I don't have that friend either. So what can happen is that child, if they're living in a swinging door atmosphere through their divorced parents, they either might become really anxious attachment as an adult. Are you there? Are you leaving me? I don't know where to go. I'm texting all the time. I start stalking. I'm, I'm panicking. I'm looking at your Facebook page. I'm so nervous. I don't feel settled and secure in the relationship because what the pattern was, is that people are gonna leave me.

Karen McNaney (29m 38s):
The other extreme is the avoidant attachment style where I'm not even really getting that close. I'm not even investing because chances are you're gonna be out the door. This isn't gonna last because I've seen it my old childhood. It never lasts. People come and go and you think, oh, they're gonna be here and they're gonna support me, and then they're gone. So screw it. And we get these two extremes and, and what we know in the therapeutic world is what all of us are striving for is that secure attachment, which starts with self, again, a podcast for another day. But that I know I can meet my needs through my myself and because I'm secure in that, then people may come and go, but I'm not in charge of that And I don't have to be thrown off balance by that.

Karen McNaney (30m 25s):
But that's difficult for most of us grownups, let alone children. So that's why we implement that six month period of time where we're establishing the relationship, establishing my next recommendation is then that you actually tell your co-parent before you start talking to the kids about that new partnership, you give them a heads up, Hey, I've met someone we've been dating five, six months. It's feels really serious. Probably gonna start spending time with the kids. 'cause honestly, that's part of the dating journey as a divorce person. You're not just dating me but dating my kids and vice versa. Do we all get along? We have to take that out for a test drive at some point, but we don't need to go from zero to 60 in a day.

Karen McNaney (31m 10s):
Right? I met someone and now it's slumber party. No. And for most of us, if we're in a shared co-parenting relationship, that means we have time where we're not actually parenting. That's when you date. Now when you, in my case, I had 50% of my life suddenly is freed up. So that would seem the probable and likely time that I would take care of my extracurricular life. That doesn't involve my kids. And by informing your other co-parent that there's a relationship and that you're going to introduce them to the kids, a couple of things happen. One, you bring 'em on your side, there's an appreciation factor.

Karen McNaney (31m 50s):
You're not right. It's not enemy lines. I'm letting you know. It also helps that other parent succeed with their children because those kids might start talking about the new person. And again, surprises can be very disorienting. So that other parent, oh yes, your dad was telling me that he's got someone new in his life. That's great. I, I hope things go well with it. And that's it again, do not turn your children into the spy, into the negotiator, into the mediator or the communicator. Those are not the roles for your children. If you have questions about that new person, you go ask your co-parent, not your children.

Karen McNaney (32m 34s):
Because what happens is children then feel like, oh, I'm keeping a secret, or I should keep a secret. Or I don't know if it's safe to ta talk to my mom about my dad's new girlfriend And I don't even know if I'm allowed to like her. Very confusing because kids have loyalties and they start to become protectors where they don't need to be. So really important that it's transparent. You're helping everyone succeed. But mostly your kids. And then back at home, you might start talking about that person long before you meet them. Hey, I'm dating. And again, it's age appropriate. Once my kids were in high school, they're super interested in my dating life. I'm like, it's weird. And I'm like, mom, are you on Bumble?

Karen McNaney (33m 15s):
Are you on tender? How's it going? Who you? I'm like, I don't think I wanna talk to you of my teenage kids about that. But they're now dating so they have a different orientation than the 6-year-old or the 10-year-old. So we have to be age appropriate as well. And then we allow love to come to the family, right? Like love wins. And if there's someone new coming into the family who just wants to love on these new kids in their life, we're allowing the other parent to know that's happening so they don't become a barrier to it. So we're talking to the kids about this new person. And then I always suggest a social environment. Maybe it's a play date at the park, maybe it's the Halloween trick or treating, maybe it's an event at the school carnival so that the kids don't feel like I'm in an interview with this new person and we're all sitting around the dining room table having a very formal dinner And I don't wanna talk and Right.

Karen McNaney (34m 8s):
Make it easy. Volunteer projects, raking leaves together really easy and bite-sized pieces. And then that gradually progresses. Dislike any acceleration, not zero to 60. And again, probably not overnights until the nine month mark because that really shifts the dynamics where now the children were accustomed to having you, the entirety of your attention, they're now splitting it. And whether you want to or not, that new relationship is gonna become a primary presence that everyone's gonna be negotiating in that house. And then If you decide to blend families, move in together again, big undertaking.

Karen McNaney (34m 51s):
And there's good ways to do it. There's bad ways to do it and there's great ways to do it. And to me it's always be thoughtful, be intentional, and you can either do it fast or you can do it right. You usually don't get both and flow and steady wins the race. And I see particularly in that dev orgasmic phase when we're like OMG, there are new sweeties out there, I am going for it. And we were a little again intoxicated in the experience and that's probably not the best time to start making long-term decisions. Just wanted to wiggle in a little bit about that introduction with kids as we talk about new people.

Karen McNaney (35m 34s):
And back to your question, Ryan, the holidays. I would hope that if new partners are coming to the holiday table or the Christmas tree or the birthday parties, that really everything we've talked about today is already in place. You've been thoughtful, intentional, they've heard about the person, they've had some casual time with them. Do not bring your new partner that nobody has met to family dinner. Don't bring them to the birthday party. I just had this conversation with a client who's dating someone new, the kids haven't met him, like she really wants to get everybody Christmas presents. I'm like, no, actually, because she doesn't even have a relationship with your kids yet.

Karen McNaney (36m 16s):
It feels a little like I'm buying your affection and mom's gonna be pissed because who is this woman buying Christmas presents for my children that she doesn't even know it's insincere. Again, it's triggering. Unlike we buy presents when it's meaningful and there's a preexisting relationship and then we're thoughtful about it. If you, 'cause some of you listening might already be divorced and you're the one being introduced, like don't go buy the most expensive thing you can find that outshines the parents' budget or what the parents have in mind. Because again, we're trying to avoid those awkward situations for the kids. It's always about the kids.

Karen McNaney (36m 58s):
And If you think you're punishing a parent through your behavior, chances are that's trickling down and and actually the one who gets the short end of the stick is the kiddos. So really being thoughtful and being respectful of family traditions and wiggling that person in, not dropping them in out of nowhere.

Ryan Kalamaya (37m 18s):
Totally. There's so many examples or vignettes that come through my mind. It's the, and one thing we haven't mentioned is the, the kind of risk of social media and sharing your new relationship, the surprise that can result in from the soon to be ex as well as kids. The kids, they can, if they're on social media and they often will have more access than the parents really give them credit. And I've seen it where people are super excited, they're just so psyched that they've got this new positive thing in their life and they wanna share it with their friends. And so they share it on social media.

Ryan Kalamaya (38m 0s):
They could be out to dinner, they could be getting, and the financial repercussions too is that if they're in the middle of a divorce and they're buying gifts or going out to dinner with their other, their kind of new found love, that can cause conflicts. And I think having a conversation about what responsibility, if any, a spouse has for owning that expense. And also just the time allocation, because being alone over the holidays, it sucks. And yeah, they need to be really careful about that. Travel the overlay, as you talked about with the kids. There are so many landmines out there, but it, there is, it's just human nature.

Ryan Kalamaya (38m 43s):
If you have been in a shitty relationship, a shitty marriage, and you meet somebody, you're gonna be, you're in that orgasmic phase. Yeah, as you say. But they just, yeah, but they need to be really careful as to how they navigate that, especially over the holidays.

Karen McNaney (39m 0s):
Yeah, And I, again, if there's an agreement, I'm not saying don't do it. There can be great value in it, but be thoughtful and, and discretion really is on your side. And social media is another boundary that I implement really quickly with my clients. You're gonna defriend each other by Friday. You're not gonna follow on Instagram. You're not like, again, because I, I also learned this as a consultant the hard way when somebody has suddenly told me like he unfriended me over the weekend, like some sort of asshole move and I'm like, okay, that actually is appropriate and that's gonna be better for everybody. And now I know that I have to preemptively again like hugs.

Karen McNaney (39m 41s):
What are we doing? What are we not doing? Dating hugs, social media. And so we agree. And then it doesn't come as a shock. I've even started with some clients who've had really tense, they're often tense, but not always at the time. What I say, divorce graduation where the paperwork is done and it gets sent off to the courthouse. We make an agreement going forward. Lots of agreements about co-parenting and kids, but even for them, okay, my wife is my now ex-wife is going to start cancer treatment in two months. Do I keep checking in on her? Do I call her, oh, we got divorced on November 5th. Do we say happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas?

Karen McNaney (40m 24s):
Do I remember their birthdays? We always take this big friend trip out to the Oregon coast and, and again, Pete, one person might be like, oh yeah, I'm not doing any of that. And the other keeps doing it and we're like, uhoh rejection. So we decide on the moratorium, we give everyone permission and it might be we're just not gonna have any personal contact, any what we would call friendly, thoughtful birthday cards, checking in for a year or until the first of the year or through the holidays. And some are like, oh yeah, that doesn't matter. It's not, it's not gonna be a problem. But again, we've agreed so that people aren't navigating unknown land and causing, because again, even once Ryan gets your settlement and your decree to the judge, you're just at a new starting point.

Karen McNaney (41m 12s):
You're not done. So we're making plans for the future relationship that's going to follow you again with kids wherever in some capacity.

Ryan Kalamaya (41m 24s):
Karen, Thank you for the time and the insight. I think it's a, something we haven't covered on the podcast before. For listeners that want to find out more about you and the good divorce experience, which you've trademarked, and we'll have a link to the Good Divorce Show podcast, Ian, the show notes, where can listeners find you and find out more information about you?

Karen McNaney (41m 48s):
If you Google the Good Divorce Coach, you're gonna find me. It's a little easier to spell than Karen McNeeney, but that'll get you there too. And I wanted to mention on my podcast, not only do I talk to folks like you, Ryan, experts in the industry and therapists and C dfas and realtors, et cetera, but I have a lot of just people post-divorce who come back to talk about their story. Couples who sit down together and they laugh and joke and talk about what they've done. Well, adult children of divorce And I only broadcast positive stories, none of the junk. So you can go there and find real people who have had good Divorce isn, which does not mean they're easy.

Karen McNaney (42m 31s):
It's still a death, it's still a recovery period. But I don't think we amplify the examples of what it looks and sounds like to do it well. And sometimes all people need is to hear it and see it and go, oh, that's a possibility. It worked for them. Maybe it'll work for us.

Ryan Kalamaya (42m 53s):
For listeners that found any insight here helpful, I encourage you to check out Karen's podcast and her website. And thanks again for joining us, Karen, and until next time, Thank you listeners for listening all the way through. And If you found anything helpful, please share with a friend and give us a like, it does help others find us. But until next time, I'm Ryan Kliman for Divorce Altitude.