Financial Abuse in Divorce: Strategies for Protection and Recovery with Lisa Zeiderman | Episode 227

In this rebroadcasted episode of Divorce at Altitude, we revisit a powerful conversation with attorney Lisa Zeiderman, Managing Partner at Miller Zeiderman LLP. Lisa offers her expert insights into the often-hidden world of financial abuse and manipulation within marriages, sharing how it can manifest and how individuals can protect themselves. With her deep experience in financial forensics, Lisa brings both a calculated and compassionate approach to understanding these sensitive issues.

In this episode, Ryan and Lisa discuss the fine line between financial naivety and deliberate abuse within marital finances, exploring how the dynamics of financial control can unfold in relationships. Topics include:

• Proactive Strategies for Safeguarding Your Financial Interests: How to protect your assets and secure your financial future when facing a divorce.
• The Art of Discovery in Divorce Proceedings: Lisa outlines the critical steps in uncovering hidden assets, income, and financial discrepancies during the divorce process.
• Choosing the Right Attorney: Why it's crucial to select a lawyer who is not only skilled in legal matters but also a savvy financial strategist who can navigate complex financial issues.
• The Role of Forensic Accountants & Valuation Experts: Lisa emphasizes the often-underestimated value of forensic accountants and valuation experts, who can uncover financial discrepancies and provide the clarity needed to ensure a fair settlement.

Whether you’re currently navigating a divorce or simply looking to understand the financial dynamics at play, this episode offers valuable tools and strategies for anyone facing the challenges of financial abuse in divorce.

If you missed this episode the first time, be sure to tune in for this insightful conversation on protecting your financial well-being during divorce.

What is Divorce at Altitude?

Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha provide tips and recommendations on issues related to divorce, separation, and co-parenting in Colorado. Ryan and Amy are the founding partners of an innovative and ambitious law firm, Kalamaya | Goscha, that pushes the boundaries to discover new frontiers in family law, personal injuries, and criminal defense in Colorado.

To subscribe to Divorce at Altitude, click here and select your favorite podcast player. To subscribe to Kalamaya | Goscha's YouTube channel where many of the episodes will be posted as videos, click here. If you have additional questions or would like to speak to one of our attorneys, give us a call at 970-429-5784 or email us at info@kalamaya.law.

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DISCLAIMER: THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS ON THIS PODCAST IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL ADVICE. CONTACT AN ATTORNEY IN YOUR STATE OR AREA TO OBTAIN LEGAL ADVICE ON ANY OF THESE ISSUES.

Transcript

Ryan Kalamaya (3s):
Hey everyone, I'm Ryan Kalamaya.

Amy Goscha (6s):
And I am Amy Goscha.

Ryan Kalamaya (8s):
Welcome to the Divorce at Altitude, A Podcast on Colorado Family Law.

Amy Goscha (13s):
Divorce is not easy. It really sucks. Trust me, I know. Besides being an experienced divorce attorney, I'm also a divorce client.

Ryan Kalamaya (20s):
Whether you or someone considering divorce or a fellow Family Law attorney, listen in for weekly tips and insight into topics related to divorce, co-parenting and separation in Colorado. Welcome back to another episode of Divorce Altitude. This is your co-host, Ryan Kalamaya. This week I'm joined by a guest, an expert in financial abuse, and we're gonna be discussing the various issues that can come up, tactics If you are a victim of financial abuse. But let me tell you first a little bit about who we're gonna be hearing from today. Her name is Lisa Derman.

Ryan Kalamaya (1m 0s):
She's the managing partner at Miller Derman, LLP. They are in New York. She regularly handles complex financial and custody divorce matters for high net worth individuals. She was named and has been named to a variety of awards and lists for her work. In addition to authoring a well-read blog on Psychology Today, legal Matters, she also regularly is published in Financial Advisor Magazine and we will hear about her involvement with nonprofit for financial abuse. But Before I go on, Lisa, welcome to the show.

Lisa Derman (1m 37s):
Thank you. Thanks so much for having me, Ryan. Really appreciate it.

Ryan Kalamaya (1m 41s):
So can you tell our listeners to give us a little bit more background about who you are and how you took a particular interest in financial abuse and before you really get into too much of financial abuse, we'll talk about kind of the definition of that. But who are you, what is the background here that people can expect to hear from you?

Lisa Derman (2m 2s):
So I am interested managing partner of Miller Zeidman. It is a matrimonial and divorce law firm that is in New York, both in Manhattan and in Westchester County, although we handle some of the other boroughs as well. And I became a lawyer actually as my second career. I was in the fashion business for many years and then decided after going through my own divorce that this was something that was really interesting to me And I really felt like I could be very helpful to a lot of people having gone through it myself and having seen both the pitfalls, the, and some of the things that could have been done better, frankly, that would, would have either sped it up or made me feel more secure about the process.

Lisa Derman (2m 44s):
And so I had decided to go back to college or just actually start college at that point, and then to law school. And I had already honed in on becoming a matrimonial attorney. And as you said, I am also on several boards including one Savvy Ladies, which is a not-for-profit that helps women empower themselves financially through financial literacy.

Ryan Kalamaya (3m 6s):
Well, I mean, you must be one of the rare people that goes back to college and law school with the intent of being a matrimonial lawyer. That is a long road. So, but I think that's incredibly helpful for you in terms of your practice and what you're able to bring to the table for your clients. So let's talk about financial abuse. What, when we say financial abuse, can you give our listeners kind of a working definition so that we know, I imagine that that's like fair in my world is like the four letter F word in a divorce because it means different things to different people. But for financial abuse, what does that mean to you?

Ryan Kalamaya (3m 46s):
And when we refer to it, what are we talking about, Lisa?

Lisa Derman (3m 50s):
So in, in one word, I think it's about control. It is about controlling someone in various ways, but doing it basically in a financial manner. So when you feel that you are controlled financially, meaning that you don't have access to assets, you don't have access to income, you may not even have access to your own income at times, you don't have access to under an understanding of what the actual finances of your partnership or your marriage are, all because you're not allowed to do so all because someone is telling you that you don't need to know or you should know, or I'm not showing it to you.

Lisa Derman (4m 32s):
That is absolutely a form of financial abuse. And so as opposed to being a partner where you would have a transparent and an open approach to finance, you are essentially cut off. And by cutting somebody off, you actually take away their power and then you make them actually powerless and reliant on you. And so that is essentially what happens. And then the abuser now that you're reliant can take advantage of the process.

Ryan Kalamaya (5m 2s):
Yeah. And Lisa, what would you say to someone who says, well, listen, my wife willingly or purposely does not participate in our financial like Eric and Melanie Wolf, that's our hypothetical divorce clients and story. If Eric is his main responsibility is going to work, bringing home the bread, making the money, if, if Melanie, if she takes care of the kids and doesn't know about their financial circumstances, is that financial abuse or can you tell us a little bit more about that gray area or that dividing line? Because I think it's really important for people to understand that dynamic.

Lisa Derman (5m 42s):
Sure. So I think that the, that your example, Melanie, for example, if Melanie is not interested or Melanie is not asking questions or wanting to see information or having a conversation about it with her spouse because she just doesn't want to, well that's on Melanie. I don't think that is, is Melanie being abused? Frankly, that's a little bit naive on Melanie's part because that's important information about, right, how her partnership is being run. But that's her choice, right? That she has decided to be reliant essentially on, on her spouse. But I think for the, on the other hand, if Melanie is actually asking for this information and Melanie is being told it's none of your business, or No, you can't have it, or you should just Trust me and stay out of it, that becomes the line where we are into abuse.

Ryan Kalamaya (6m 35s):
And I also think that there can be a continuum or on the timeline where Eric and Melanie may have an understanding very, when they have newborn children that require a lot more time by Melanie. But as time goes on and if they go into a divorce proceeding or that becomes the catalyst for the divorce because that lack of transparency or that financial abuse, that isolation, I do think that also, that certainly comes up in, at least in my observation.

Lisa Derman (7m 6s):
And look, I think if, if Eric isn't trying to involve her and trying to get her involved in it, and she's either, maybe she's just too busy or frankly she's too tired, I mean, she may be dealing with a lot of other things having just had a child or children. So it may not be first and foremost on her mind. But to your point, there may come a time when Melanie is interested and Eric then needs to make that shift to actually include her and be inclusive and show her the information and make sure that he's being transparent about it. One of the issues is, does Melanie have access to the funds?

Lisa Derman (7m 48s):
Right? Does Melanie make, she doesn't know where the funds are at the moment. Okay, because she's too busy and she's not looking at all the bank accounts. But if Melanie, is Melanie having to ask permission, is Melanie on an allowance? Is Melanie part of making sure that she understands the finances so that she can decide what the budgeting is about? Or is somebody telling her this is the way it's gonna be and that's it?

Ryan Kalamaya (8m 13s):
Well, okay. And you've covered, you've mentioned a few of them, but what are the signs of financial abuse?

Lisa Derman (8m 20s):
So I, I would say it starts first of all with the tax returns. And sometimes I, I overlook that, but somebody brought to my attention a couple of weeks ago that the tax returns are very important and very telling if your spouse is not showing you the tax returns and you are expected that you're filing these tax returns jointly and he does, he or she doesn't wanna show you the income, doesn't wanna show you the entire return is just saying just okay with the account or I'm filing it or just sign here or you don't need to see it or hiding it from you or not filing it, by the way. Okay. Sometimes it's, IT spouses just don't file the tax returns for years and years, all of those things.

Lisa Derman (9m 1s):
And you are questioning it and not getting straight answers. That's the first sign. Second sign is, do you have access to credit cards or your or or you have no access and you literally cannot go and and charge something. So if there was an emergency, you would have no access. Do you have a debit card? Do you have a bank account where money is being deposited on a regular basis or are you constantly in the situation where you say, I don't have enough money, I don't have gasoline for my car. I don't have, I can't go buy groceries for the family, I don't have money for childcare And I need to work. That also is a very telltale sign that somebody is not giving you enough money for the basic living essentials and yet there's enough money for that person to do other things.

Lisa Derman (9m 47s):
So this isn't a situation where there's just money is so tight that doesn't exist. And so that, that's very important. If someone has changed all the passwords, you're used to be able to understand all this information. You used to know what was in the accounts, used to see the credit cards, but now the passwords are changed, the documents are no longer coming to the house, they're being mailed to some other place, maybe another address, maybe a work address. You are not allowed to see them. You're being told it's none of your business. You may actually be the breadwinner. And this is a very unusual but very important point. There are a lot of people who are actually the breadwinners in a family dynamic, and yet they are actually abused financially.

Lisa Derman (10m 28s):
And somebody says, how could that be? They have the control. Well, they don't have the control because they actually are so verbally abused sometimes and in and put in such a place that they actually have to turn over their salary so the other person can then control it. And again, I think that there are different dynamics. Would I be in that situation? No, I can't picture that. I would turn over my salary and then be abused and then be told that I can't have it. Right? But there are a lot of people who are in that situation. And so I think that there are a lot of different things. But one of the, one of the television shows that's out there is a show called Made. And I don't know if you've ever seen it, Ryan, but it's a fabulous show.

Lisa Derman (11m 10s):
And it's a true story actually, of a woman who was financially abused and as a result physically and emotionally abused. And literally this woman did not have enough money for daycare for her child. Her husband in the show is an alcoholic. He beats her up regularly and all of these things, but she can't get out, right, because she doesn't have enough money to even get the daycare that she needs so she could go get the jobs that she needs so she could earn the money eventually. She works herself out of it because she's relied on certain people to help her. But it's a very important story.

Ryan Kalamaya (11m 47s):
Yeah, I mean, when you talked about financial abuse of visual in my mind was from the HBO or the Max Series, big Little Lies where there's, for listeners that haven't seen it, Nicole Kidman is the victim. Her character is the victim of some pretty intense and visually disturbing abuse, physical abuse. And then, but she's really isolated and you can see it. And then we're gonna talk next Lisa, about ways that you can protect yourself. But in Big Little Lies, the character that Nicole Kidman, she basically has another rental. She starts kind of moving clothes over there and protecting herself. 'cause she knows that eventually she's gonna need to leave.

Ryan Kalamaya (12m 31s):
She did. I mean, but, but one of the elements of financial abuse is, And I see it where someone, and and we've been thus far, generally gender, we've talked about Melanie being the victim. It does happen. And you've, you've mentioned it before, I've certainly seen CEOs or males who they bring home the money or they may not, but they have no idea what the personal, like they are focused on the business or focused on just bringing home the money. And they, they actually don't know about the personal financials, which is like mind-boggling. But it happens. But in any event, when you can't go and get a, a rental or you can't consult with a lawyer because the person is, has not given a credit card or they're monitoring the credit cards in depth or there's gonna be a punishment.

Ryan Kalamaya (13m 18s):
So what are the ways, Lisa, that people, victims can protect themselves from financial abuse?

Lisa Derman (13m 27s):
Well, so I, I think Melanie's a good example actually. So If you actually start out as Melanie, and you don't make any changes in your life and you are married to a spouse who is abusive, you've put yourself into a situation where it actually can escalate to the point of financial abuse. Now Melanie, in your description, wasn't being financially abused, she just wasn't interested. But her lack of interest could eventually lead to a financially abusive situation. And so I think the first thing is to educate yourself about the finances. And as you're educating yourself about the finances, you're going to find out if someone is going to stop you from doing that.

Lisa Derman (14m 8s):
Right? And then it's about having a conversation if that's the situation in a safe manner, right? If you feel unsafe, then you need to do something different, right? 'cause you don't wanna plead your safety or the safety of your children at risk. But speaking to a therapist about these issues, seeing an attorney about these issues, If you feel like you're financially abused, making sure that you have a bank account to which you have access, frankly, working okay, being out there in the workforce. I, I know that it's difficult for a lot of people because they are raising children or they have decided that they're going to be supportive of their spouse and their children. And so they put themselves on the back burner. Well, it's about that oxygen mask first on yourself before you could help others.

Lisa Derman (14m 53s):
And so it's really important that you have some sort of access to money at all times. And credit cards, build your own credit score, build your own credit card, make sure that you have access to a checking account, a savings account, a retirement account. These are things that you don't wanna put on the back burner. Speak to a financial advisor so that you make sure you're saving for your own retirement, because sometimes people are abused later in life as well, right? Financially abused. And you don't wanna put yourself in that situation as well. So there's a lot of different things that you can do. Make sure that you speak to the accountant when your tax returns are being filed. Make sure that you ask the questions and that they're being answered.

Lisa Derman (15m 34s):
And if the accountant is filing joint tax returns and not answering your questions saying that I'll only work with your spouse, then that accountant shouldn't be your accountant anymore because that accountant is not working for the two people who are filing the tax return. So, and then look, as I said, I'm part of this not-for-profit, which is nationwide, and we have a helpline. Women call into this helpline specifically to get free financial advice. And it's phenomenal. They are paired with financial professionals. And those financial professionals then answer their financial questions. And if there are abusive types of situations, sometimes they're referred to other non-for-profits to deal with those issues.

Lisa Derman (16m 15s):
So there's a lot of different things. Confide in a good fringe, make sure that you have that safety net. It's really important. And don't isolate yourself. I think that one of the things that that happens is people start to isolate themselves. They don't have enough money, they don't have enough of a feeling that they of of self-worth because of that. And they stop having context with the outside world. Family, friends, other people who could be helping them. They have cut themselves off from those people.

Ryan Kalamaya (16m 44s):
Yeah. And, And I think it, an important point for people is oftentimes, at least for from my observation and it's human psychology, is that people can get so overwhelmed where they know, Melanie can just say, I don't understand it. I've never been involved in finances, find financials and just I, and just be overwhelmed. And I think for the melies of the world or someone that is maybe financially unsophisticated, that it's just, you just gotta start somewhere. Whether it be like, I'm going to get a job and, and like manage and that might be my play money or I'm gonna learn about this. There are so many resources, whether it be going to the library and just picking up a financial book.

Ryan Kalamaya (17m 29s):
And at first they're not gonna understand 10% of it, but at least the next book or the next blog post or the next podcast that they listen to, they will then start improving it. You gotta start somewhere. And there are resources. I think it's just the commitment to starting somewhere. And then once they understand that, and it could be going back to basics of just opening up your own bank account, just taking that step I think is really important from a psychology standpoint. I don't know what you think of that, Lisa,

Lisa Derman (18m 2s):
But I think that's a hundred percent correct. Look, I, I'm a big proponent of people being out in the workforce, even if it's a part-time job, even if it's volunteer work, frankly. But keeping yourself out there and making sure that you are supporting your own self is very important. And I think that you don't wanna end up in a situation where you just have no financial empowerment. I mean, that it, it's just the most basic thing that you can do. You need money to operate in this world, right? It, it, it, it's just that simple. Maybe you don't need a lot of money to operate in this world, but you need money. You need money for all the basic things.

Ryan Kalamaya (18m 42s):
And Lisa, I know you represent high net, net worth individuals, and that is certainly my specialty. And at my firms, no matter how much money someone has, anytime they come into a divorce situation, everyone worries. Is it going to be enough? Is my lifestyle going to change? We've had various podcast guests, Olivia Summerhill, she's a financial advisor that helps high net worth individuals or high net worth women rather, really figure that out. And like that when you get it, you don't have to know the taxability of life insurance. That's not what we're talking about here of the really sophisticated novel financial complications. But it's more just familiarizing yourself and knowing your limitations and then getting the help that you may need.

Ryan Kalamaya (19m 29s):
I mean, Olivia or a financial advisor that guides high net worth individuals or a lawyer that really specializes in that. That's not for everyone, but you just, I mean, it could be, you just gotta start somewhere. And so any thoughts on that?

Lisa Derman (19m 44s):
Sure. Look, I, I'll share a little personal story and it's not so personal anymore because it was in the Wall Street Journal. So I had a reporter actually, who wrote a very nice piece on my husband and myself in the Wall Street Journal probably about six months ago. And one of the questions was really, how do matrimonial attorneys handle their own financial lives, right? That was the idea. And we talk about our finances all the time. It's part of our conversation. There's probably not a day that I don't wanna know what's happening in our finances. I I go to the mailbox, so I'm not home every single day, right? And my husband most of the time gets the mail. Now I trust my husband implicitly, okay? He is the love of my life.

Lisa Derman (20m 25s):
But on Saturdays, when we drive out of the driveway and we are going for breakfast or to run errands or whatever, I go to the mailbox. It's a random day in terms of mail, right? The American Express card is not gonna come every Saturday, for example, right? The bill, the, the bank information is not gonna come every Saturday, but it's a opportunity for me to randomly see what's in the mailbox. And so I get out of the car And I grab the mail And I just open it. I, it doesn't matter who it's addressed to 'cause we're both sitting there, right? And I'm just opening it And I get to see what's happening in our lives. And again, I call it the mailbox rule, right? You need to look at the mail, you need to actually see what is there.

Lisa Derman (21m 7s):
Years ago I had a client who, she was getting packages coming into the house and she knew that her husband, frankly, wa, was cheating on her and buying all of these lavish gifts. And one day a package comes to the house, I'll never forget it, and she puts it in his office and it's from the exact store that she knew he was buying it from for his girlfriend. And I said, why would you put it in his office? Why didn't you open it? And she said, well, I didn't think to do that. And I was thinking to myself, why wouldn't you have thought to do that? What is it that, that people just do this routine every single time and they never change it up and they never think about what's in, in front of them.

Lisa Derman (21m 50s):
And so you need to pay attention, you need to look at the bank accounts, you need to look at the mail. It, it's the basic stuff. When that American Express card, when you never see those statements, where are they going? Ask the question.

Ryan Kalamaya (22m 4s):
Well, and and for Lisa, for people that may not be checking their mailbox, 'cause they're physically separated 'cause they're going through a divorce, let's talk about some strategies or ways that people can address financial abuse in a divorce. So you're a a matrimonial lawyer. Can you kinda walk us through different strategies or tips when there's a divorce involving financial abuse?

Lisa Derman (22m 31s):
So it's about discovery, right? It's discovery. It's about making sure that you have an attorney that is going to ask for all the documentation and who's going to perhaps conduct the deposition of your spouse and make sure that you have a sworn net worth statement and that they have gone through the documents and that they have located the assets and the liabilities for that matter. And to be honest with that attorney about the situation. So that attorney doesn't think that you're in the know when you're frankly not in the know. And you need to say, I need to rely on you to do this and to give your attorney that ability and to, and that, okay, essentially that consent on your report to conduct the necessary discovery.

Lisa Derman (23m 15s):
And what does discovery mean? It means that they're going to look at the credit card statements, they're going to look at the bank statements, the tax returns. They may interview the accountant. If it's a high net worth divorce, baby, there's a business that has a lot of money in the accounts and somebody's not putting that money into the personal accounts. Perhaps There's a lot of expenses being written off from that business that you may not be aware of. There. There are so many different ways, right? That discovery needs to take place and you need to be open to doing that because that is how you're going to find out about your finances. So If you really didn't have any idea or you have a limited idea, it, it's about doing that work.

Lisa Derman (23m 57s):
And frankly, it's an education for the client as well. You need to look at the documents that your attorney is sending you. You need to start to pay attention to it so that you can be involved in the process. Years ago I did a deposition And I represented the husband and the wife was complaining. I never see anything. I never, he never lets me see anything. And at some point she got her own accounts and she certainly had the access. And I asked her about it and she said something in the statement during a deposition and she said, I don't look at that. I said, well, that's what you complained you used to do. Now it's in your name and you're not looking at it. So I'm not understanding this anymore. So you need to maybe change it up, start to be part of your own financial advisory team.

Ryan Kalamaya (24m 42s):
Yeah, And I think that team element you mentioned, depending on the kind of circumstances, but being open to your limitations in bringing in experts, whether it be forensic accountants or valuation experts or, and then the financial advisors. And I think a lot of times, I don't know about you, Lisa, a lot of people, they come to me and they're like, okay, first of all, you're a lawyer every law. And I'm like, no, law is like a telephone book. It's like, I've got a couple sections memorized and I know my best friend's number. I can still remember it from when I was in kindergarten. We don't really have phone books anymore. I think visually people can somewhat relate to that. But we know us and we know how to look up the, the law.

Ryan Kalamaya (25m 25s):
But the other aspect is that we don't know tax, like to the extent of a CPA or real estate. And so as lawyers, matrimonial lawyers, we're often the quarterback that, or the coach rather, that's guiding a team that is composed of, of various specialists. And for me, I find financial advisors for the, if I'm representing Melanie and, and she's the victim of financial abuse, I need to have someone that is going to educate her. I, I can do it, but you know, I'm an expensive resource and not as well versed in it. If I was, I'd be a financial advisor instead of a, a lawyer.

Ryan Kalamaya (26m 6s):
And so really kind of knowing where to put your energy and that Melanie needs to kind of understand those issues, but absolutely she can't just stick her head in the sand and expect people to do everything for her. The final point I think, Lisa, is that I think a lot of people, Eric and Melanie, And I'm sure you've seen this, where they will say, Eric will say, well, she needs to take the sick kid to the doctor. 'cause that's what she's always done. Well, Eric, things are changing in a divorce. You're what, what used to happen during the marriage and your your relationship, things are gonna gonna change in when you go through a divorce. Same thing for Melanie is that she needs to understand that she needs to take financial responsibility and pay for her own bills.

Ryan Kalamaya (26m 54s):
Even though that's what Eric always did during the marriage, things are going to change. I think people, it takes longer for some people than others to really come to that conclusion.

Lisa Derman (27m 6s):
I think that's right. And I think that the sooner that people make some of those changes and start to take responsibility for their financial lives, the better. I I will say Melanie was a good example because if your spouse is trying to involve you in the finances, you should take that opportunity. That is an opportunity. And I have so many people who actually complain that their spouse doesn't want to understand it or doesn't want to hear it. And that also becomes a problem, right? Because how could you know what you're supposed to spend or what you're gonna be actually needing for retirement or how to save or any of those kinds of things, right?

Lisa Derman (27m 48s):
So I think people need to be active in their financial lives, and if they feel that they are being abused, then they need to get help. They, they really do. They need to speak to a therapist or a lawyer or a good friend or, but they should not let themselves be in such an abusive situation.

Ryan Kalamaya (28m 5s):
A hundred percent. I I, I guess a final couple points to that is in, in a divorce where financial abuse exists, there, there there's going to be this reluctance oftentimes psychologically by Melanie to do something. And she needs to realize that you might need to get the court involved and have, in Colorado we call it temporary orders, where there's, there's gonna be a payment to Melanie and she needs to know kind of what she's gonna do with it, but it might require some conflict and it might require some litigation. And she needs to understand that, that, that she can't just be a victim. I tell people, you are worth what you tolerate. And if people have been programmed to just be, and they're a victim and they're just so beaten down, that's really hard for them to kind of psychologically pull up.

Ryan Kalamaya (28m 52s):
The other point is the flip side, And I think you mentioned you represented the husband. If I'm representing Eric and there are allegations of financial abuse, or he comes and says, I've always dealt with the money, then for me as his lawyer, I'm leaning into transparency. I'm getting the other side, the financial statements, the bank statements, the tax returns as soon as possible because you mentioned discovery, that's when the cost of the case just goes through the roof, the depositions and everything. And so I'm gonna really have a, you know, a, a heart to heart with Eric and say, you may have been the abuser, but you need to really give her the information.

Ryan Kalamaya (29m 36s):
And if you're not the abuser, then you're gonna have to give this information anyways. And so it's gonna be, it's gonna keep your costs down. 'cause at the very beginning of the, the s episode, we talked about where that line was. And I think it really is about, kind of intent by Eric is like when he's isolating her on purpose or preventing her from access, you know, that, but it, it can be a gray area, right? And if it's Melanie just kind of sticking her head in the sand and she doesn't wanna deal with it, well, you don't wanna be the, you don't wanna be claimed to the offender of financial abuse, but it does happen. And I don't know If you have any thoughts on kind of what, you know, I just mentioned there.

Lisa Derman (30m 17s):
So I, look, I am a big believer in turning over documentation very fast and making sure that you're very thorough in it. And so if I'm representing the person who is supposed to be turning over, the discovery is gonna be turned over because it, it does keep the costs way down. Those letters, you haven't turned over this, so you haven't turned over that or you're deficient in this, are you're deficient in that there's no reason for it. Like get your documents together because eventually you're gonna be turning them over. And frankly, you are just starting a, a whole situation where people are in now the hunt mode, right? They believe that the person who isn't turning over the discovery is dishonest or hiding something.

Lisa Derman (30m 59s):
And I think there's nothing like that hunch that matrimonial attorneys really actually enjoy, okay? And they then think, well, there's something in they're hiding and they are after it. And it's like a hound dog, right? They're, they're just after it. And so you're not gonna keep it. They're going to get it and not turning it over is just gonna make it more expensive and frankly, much more obvious that it's something that is important to be looking at. So just turn it all over.

Ryan Kalamaya (31m 28s):
And the judges hate it. I mean, the judge, if they feel like the a client, if, if a party like Eric is being evasive and they combine that where they're doubling down with the abusive behavior during the marriage continues in the divorce, they are gonna get hammered. I mean, that's at least my experience,

Lisa Derman (31m 50s):
A hundred percent. They're gonna get, they, they will end up paying more in legal fees for themselves and for their spouse likely. And so, and there'll be no excuse. So turning it over, just gather it. Just get it together, just send it out.

Ryan Kalamaya (32m 4s):
And I think Lisa, you And I mentioned our various experiences, And I mean, whether it's us or somebody, I think if you're a victim of financial abuse, you need to seek proper professional guidance. And if it's a divorce lawyer, ask them, can you walk through your experience with financial abuse? And I, I don't think you should be shy asking those questions because I think it, early on in my career, I was not equipped with the skills or the knowledge to deal with this. I mean, you talked about your own divorce and so you had that experience, but I think when people are naive, Melanie, when she's naive in her, her marriage, the risk is compounded exponentially if she picks a naive divorce lawyer or doesn't surround herself with the appropriate professionals

Lisa Derman (32m 50s):
A hundred percent that that's a hundred percent true.

Ryan Kalamaya (32m 53s):
Well, for those that want more research or more resources, we'll have links to the show notes. But Lisa, can you, can you provide where, what's the best way to reach you at and you, can you mention that organization again for those who are listeners that might wanna learn more?

Lisa Derman (33m 7s):
Sure. So you can reach me through.com and it's the spelling my name, L-I-S-A-Z-E-I-D-E-R-M-A n.com. And I have a blog and there'll be a way to contact me through that. You can call actually at nine one four four five five one. Or you can email at lz@mzwlaw.com. And then for Savvy Ladies, which is, as I said, a fabulous resource, particularly frankly for women to be able to get financial help and it's free of charge and they're, the women are actually paired with financial professionals.

Lisa Derman (33m 48s):
And so that is, that will be www.savvyladies.org. And I, I would, and you can go to that site and it's S-A-V-V-Y ladies.org and you can say that you actually saw it on this podcast, which you know and explain what your situation is and they will help you. And they will help you for free.

Ryan Kalamaya (34m 13s):
Well, that is such an incredible resource, and Thank you so much, Lisa, for the time. Clearly you've spent a lot of time in the trenches And I hope listeners, even if it's just one person that hears This episode and they've gained something, then that is, is, that makes it all the worth it. So Thank you though for your, for your time and we'll again, have links to Lisa and the, and and her bio and the, and the show notes. But thanks again for joining us on Divorce at Altitude.

Lisa Derman (34m 42s):
Thank you so much, Ryan.

Ryan Kalamaya (34m 43s):
Hey everyone, this is Ryan again. Thank you for joining us on Divorce at Altitude. If you found our tips, insight, or discussion helpful, please tell a friend about this podcast. For show notes, additional resources or links mentioned on today's episode, visit Divorce at Altitude dot com. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen in. Many of our episodes are also posted on YouTube. You can also find Amy and me at Cal Law or 9 7 0 3 1 5 2 3 6 5. That's K-A-L-A-M-A Ya Law.