Divorce at Altitude: A Podcast on Colorado Family Law
Divorce at Altitude: A Podcast on Colorado Family Law
More Than Legal: Managing Mindset in Divorces | Episode 233
Welcome back to Divorce at Altitude with Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha! In this episode, Ryan and co-host Amy Goscha are recording from their brand-new office near Cherry Creek—and reflecting on the mindsets that shape how clients experience divorce and custody disputes.
Drawing from both their professional and personal experiences, Ryan and Amy unpack what it means to manage emotions, expectations, and communication through one of life’s most difficult transitions. Whether you're an attorney or someone navigating a family law matter, this episode offers valuable insights into the human side of the legal process.
Episode Highlights
Client Mindset & Overwhelm
• Why some clients want their lawyer to “drive the train”
• Recognizing when you're in fight-or-flight mode
• How attorneys can meet clients where they are emotionally
The Reality of ‘Divorce Fog’
• Why trauma and anxiety affect task execution
• Tips for taking small steps forward, even when overwhelmed
• The importance of responsive communication during crisis
Entrenchment & Reactivity
• What happens when clients feel the need to “fight back”
• Why doing nothing can sometimes be the best strategy
• The plane analogy: understanding the quiet middle phase of litigation
When Lawyers Are Clients
• Why attorneys are often the toughest clients
• Balancing legal knowledge with emotional vulnerability
• Letting go of control and trusting your counsel
Managing Expectations & Hope
• Setting realistic timelines and legal outcomes
• How judges weigh custody and parenting disputes
• Reframing conflict to prioritize children’s wellbeing
Key Takeaways
• Divorce is more emotional than logical—give yourself grace.
• Clear, frequent communication helps prevent reactivity and fear.
• Shifting your mindset from “me vs. them” to “what’s best for the kids” is essential.
📞 Connect with Kalamaya | Goscha:
• Facebook: Kalamaya | Goscha
• LinkedIn: Kalamaya | Goscha
• Phone: 970.315.2365
• Email: info@kalamaya.law
What is Divorce at Altitude?
Ryan Kalamaya and Amy Goscha provide tips and recommendations on issues related to divorce, separation, and co-parenting in Colorado. Ryan and Amy are the founding partners of an innovative and ambitious law firm, Kalamaya | Goscha, that pushes the boundaries to discover new frontiers in family law, personal injuries, and criminal defense in Colorado.
To subscribe to Divorce at Altitude, click here and select your favorite podcast player. To subscribe to Kalamaya | Goscha's YouTube channel where many of the episodes will be posted as videos, click here. If you have additional questions or would like to speak to one of our attorneys, give us a call at 970-429-5784 or email us at info@kalamaya.law.
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DISCLAIMER: THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS ON THIS PODCAST IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL ADVICE. CONTACT AN ATTORNEY IN YOUR STATE OR AREA TO OBTAIN LEGAL ADVICE ON ANY OF THESE ISSUES.
Hey everyone. I'm Ryan Kalamaya. And I'm Amy Goscha. Welcome to the Divorce at Altittude, a podcast on Colorado family law. Divorce is not easy. It really sucks. Trust me, I know. Besides being an experienced Divorce attorney, I'm also a Divorce client. Whether you or someone considering Divorce or a fellow family law attorney, listen in for weekly tips and insight into topics related to Divorce co-parenting. And separation in Colorado.
Ryan Kalamaya:Welcome back to another episode of Divorce Altittude. This is Ryan Kalamaya. This week Amy and I are in different rooms, but we are recording this from our new office. Amy, what do you think about the new
Amy Goscha:Oh, it's great. I haven't yeah, it's just awesome having our team in the same office, so I'm really psyched about it.
Ryan Kalamaya:We're gonna talk about mental mindsets and client management. How might that mi relate to our office? And before we kind of segue into that where is our new office? Where is it located?
Amy Goscha:We are next to Cherry Creek, so we're essentially. On ex, like where exposition hits Colorado Boulevard. So we're in the new Galleria building. So it's really a cool spot. And we'll have an open house I think soon too.
Ryan Kalamaya:Yeah. And I'm done here. I had some presentations or a presentation one rather with the judicial conference in. Older and then I'm heading out on a family vacation and seeing some family down here. So it's been fun to connect with you guys and the team here. But we, as I said before we're recording this while we're in the same area, but, and it's a little weird where you're over in the same or the different office. But where we gonna talk about here today Amy.
Amy Goscha:We're gonna talk about client management, especially, in the context of Divorce. Or if you're going through a custody dispute, like emotions are super high. And so you are dealing with life changing things. You hire your lawyer. And so we're gonna talk about how best to manage that from a client perspective, but also an attorney perspective and how to get the results that you want. And really understanding your mental mindset is key in that management.
Ryan Kalamaya:One you have a unique perspective on this 'cause you've both been a divorced client and you are a divorced lawyer. We'll come back to that, but let's kinda kick things off. The first topic that we want to talk about, or segment rather, is the client perspective of their just completely falling apart. They need their lawyer just to do everything for them. They want the client or the attorney rather to. Do everything for them because they just are either emotionally incapable or they don't want to drive the train. So what do you what do you make of this first segment?
Amy Goscha:Yeah, I think the client's mindset, like I would say is, like you feel like your life is falling apart. And so you're looking for someone to help guide your ship in the right direction because sometimes you don't even know. What direction you should be going. And so I think from a client perspective, you're really looking for, you hire a lawyer. You are, you might really like them, you might connect with them. But you're really looking to them to guide you through this unknown process. And there can be good days and there can be bad days. There can be days where you feel optimistic. Days where you're like, this is never gonna end. What am I doing? And so I think from the lawyer perspective, it's super important to understand where your client is at. And you hear the saying a lot meet people where they're at. And I do think that's true. But you have to also be able to understand that sometimes when people are in kind of flight or fight mode, they might not hear exactly what you're saying. Our job as lawyers is to give legal advice. It's to help clients navigate through the legal system to. Figure out what's in their children's best interests and to make sure that they're as financially whole as we can make them coming out of that disaster. And so I think understanding what's key to being effective a, an effective client manager from a lawyer perspective is to try to figure out how can I get through to my client? How are they going to be able to not only listen, but understand what I'm saying?
Ryan Kalamaya:Yeah, and I think there were my, from my perspective, there are times when I can tell a client is completely overwhelmed and I'll ask 'em, Hey, do you want me to, for example I can have Anna paralegal fill out your sworn financial statement. Ultimately it's their testimony and there's they are the ones that are responsible for it. I can't tell them, Hey, you should you need to si sign here. And accept this settlement. Ultimately, it's, I can tell them that's my recommendation. And so there are certain things, but there's like getting the documents and making some decisions. It's having that candid conversation with the client about where they are at. I think also from the client perspective, one thing I think that would, that's related to this topic is really taking an inventory of where you're at. It's. Naive to think that you're gonna wake up every single day and feel amazing. There's gonna be some days that you're like, I am so glad I'm getting divorced. And Yep. But then there's other days, it's we had a firm meeting earlier this week, and I shared that my perspective, I'm a baseball guy, so out of 10 times I would go up to bat. I felt two, two of them I felt amazing on average, I just felt like I could just knock the socks off the pitcher and then two days, two at bats, I would just feel awful. And it was those days in between the six days that really I focused on in terms of grinding it out and the difference between being a great player. And a mediocre player. And I think people need to understand in their Divorce, there's gonna be some days that you feel absolutely awful and you need to give yourself some grace and just say, you know what, today's not the day. And then other days you're gonna feel a little bit better, but you just need to be honest with yourself and what you're capable of doing in that particular moment of time.
Amy Goscha:Yeah. And I think as lawyers, like the really good family law attorneys like you and after we've been doing this a long time is understanding that sometimes what a client is saying might not be exactly like what a is gonna be best for them or what they actually mean. So figuring that out, if they're saying like, I'm overwhelmed, I just want out, it's our job as the attorney to like slow it down a little bit. Run them through kind of those scenarios, saying if you don't do this, like down the road, like, how are you gonna do, this? So I think it's also running clients through that those kind of future scenarios because a lot of times when you're in the circumstance of crisis, all you can see is two feet in front of you. So I find
Ryan Kalamaya:yeah. I totally agree. Switching gears and talking about mental load and mindsets that's something else that is related. But one thing I think maybe you can talk a little bit about, Amy, is the fog the Divorce fog, or. The fog of litigation. This is, it's definitely a real thing that I have observed. But do you want to talk a little bit about how that plays out when you're a divorced client?
Amy Goscha:Yeah. And from the lawyer perspective, it's, I've given my client advice. Now I need my client to execute on my directions. And so a lot of times what happens from the client perspective is. We have what are called, like what you're referring to as Divorce fog, meaning that maybe we're not in the mental space to, be able to Exactly. We say that we understand what you said I need to do, but how, but I might not be capable of doing it because maybe I'm dealing with. I'm just using myself as a hypothetical client. Maybe I'm dealing with PTSD. Maybe I, have anxiety of the unknown. So someone talking at me doesn't necessarily mean that I. Completely understand, and that I can move as quickly. I always tell clients that I think that when they're going through times of crisis, it's gonna take them twice as long to do something that would take, something that will take them an hour, is gonna take them two hours because they need that time to process.
Ryan Kalamaya:I also think I, my observation from watching people go through this is that they feel completely overwhelmed where they'll get these emails from us or they'll just think about, how am I gonna really do all this? And especially this, I think this is acute when we're dealing with financial disclosures where they will ask, I really have to do. A full budget or a complete list of all my assets and expenses and assets and the, amazing thing is watching someone and saying, just take one step at a time. Just do something. Just take action. It doesn't have to be all today. And I think a lot of people will just wait and then procrastinate. And then, but if people just take that one step, okay, I'm gonna download a bank statement, that's the first step. Then they start building on that and having. Momentum, but it is real that people that experience trauma or that they are clouded by their emotions and they can really get overwhelmed. I think that on the lawyer side, I. The lack of communication or responding because you're so busy and not responding, that just is the worst thing that can happen because the anxiety and the not feeling heard I can just see it where clients just go spiraling, and it's why I, for better or for worse. And so militant about how responsive I am on the communication side.
Amy Goscha:Yeah. And I would tell you from yeah, my like, experience as a client. I, if I send an email to my attorney and I don't hear back for a few days, it makes me feel that I'm not important to them and that, like my kid or my issue just is. That they're too busy. So I think as lawyers we have to be very cognizant about how much we take on because people going through this kind of circumstance, their expectation is high. We live in an age of AI and, instant response. So if you're going a few days without having, a question answered, it's very it's very concerning from a client perspective.
Ryan Kalamaya:Yeah, the expectation, or at least the thing that we communicate to our team, is that people need to, we need to get back with within 24 hours. If someone sends me a message at eight o'clock at night, I'm not gonna respond. My, my assessment is that around eight o'clock that. Cost benefit analysis for me personally, is just not worth it to check my email because what am I gonna really be able to, do at eight o'clock at night versus the risk that I get some snarky email from an opposing counsel that ruins my night of sleep? It's just not worth it. But am I gonna respond first thing in the morning? Yeah. And so we've tried to communicate that to our team and am I perfect in that regard? No. No, I'm not. There's definitely, I feel right now that I've taken on a little bit too much. But the gold standard is to be, in touch with our clients within 20, 24 hours. And there's a reason for that. But moving on to our third kind of topic, and that's entrenchment in reiv reactivity. And Amy, what happens when the other side makes a move that feels like an attack?
Amy Goscha:Yeah, I think anytime, like perceived or not as a client, when you see the other side doing something. It will freak you out. You're like, why are they doing this? Like they're, making moves forward. And so when the other side does that, I think clients get very entrenched on we need to be doing something. Like they're doing X, y, Z on this side, and so we need to be doing the same thing when actually that can sometimes. Amp up the the conflict in the case and frankly can make it more expensive. So I think from the attorney side, you really have to figure out how to explain to your client, I. Why, like you don't need to be doing those things or why the other side is doing that and why it doesn't make sense for us to do that. I also run through sometimes saying if I'm the judge and I'm seeing opposing counsel, doing this, like this is what, this is how I'm gonna perceive it. And I think a lot of times in these cases, I. If someone isn't following the rules it's very easy on the client side to be like if they're not following the rules, why do I? And so I think it's from the lawyer perspective, we have to explain to them, why it's so important that just because one side isn't following rules, like you need to follow the rules.
Ryan Kalamaya:I think it's really hard to do nothing. But the analogy, and we communicate this to our clients, we have an an email that. Talks about discovery, and the analogy is like a plane. I'm about to jump on a plane and go across the Atlantic Ocean for a vacation. And like when you first take off in a plane, you're excited, you're moving, you're getting going. It's like filing for Divorce. It's like this is happening and you can have mixed feelings. You can get, but you know that there is movement. You feel it and then you get up to cruising Altittude. And then nothing feels like it's happening. And you're out there and like sometimes, I mean my kids are eight and 11 at this point. They just start walking around 'cause they just wanna move something. Are they going anywhere? No, but they're like, they just want to move. I get that. I think it's human nature, but there's a lot of times when you're. The client doesn't feel like something is happening. They don't understand that mandatory disclosures are being worked on, and they just don't feel like something is happening. And so they're just like, I want to do this. I wanna subpoena that person. I wanna do this deposition. I want you to file this. And it's just because they just wanna walk around the plane. And then, the landing, it can be bumpy, but you're landing that plane and you're getting a Divorce. And but it's that middle part where people, they start getting anxious and they start want to doing, do something. The other observation I'll have is, and this is to the kind of, reactivity and entrenchment, is that. It is a common occurrence where Eric and Melanie Wolf will go through a Divorce and Eric will say that the sky is blue. And Amy, you and I will look up in the sky and it is blue it as can be. And Melanie will say, the sky's not blue. And it's just because Eric said that the sky was blue. It's just, it's, there's just the nature of these kinds of dis disputes.
Amy Goscha:Yeah, exactly. And I think the best lawyers, family lawyers are the ones that do case, like talking about case management, like being proactive, having the case management meetings with clients to be like, this is what we're doing, like we're gonna be doing this next. I find that in my case, I tend to be the driver a lot of times on how things move through the process. And you and I have talked about this a lot, like how people. The longer their Divorce goes on the, they get happier and it's because of that analogy of where they're just walking around the plane and nothing is happening. So I think, like we can control what we can control, but being the lawyer that's pushing the case forward and having those check-ins with the client, I think helps with client management and the client feeling that, like I have, consistent and ongoing communication with my lawyer.
Ryan Kalamaya:For sure, but then there it's an art, not necessarily science, because there are those cases where you're, you can push things along and the other side is just going to take a step backwards just because you want to push things along and you just have to understand the emotional. Perspective of both people. If one person, if Melanie Wolf is just not ready, sometimes you gotta give her just space and let her process things and it may not, I. It hopefully doesn't cost that much to give her the space, but you have to have that conversation with Eric of, we're gonna be intentional about, we're just, this is not gonna be productive. We might have mediation next week, but she is just not ready. And so it may be worthwhile to discuss rescheduling in that regard, 'cause of that reactivity and entrenchment. That might be going on, on, on Melanie.
Amy Goscha:Yeah. And I think the hardest cases are the ones where the other side is not doing what they're supposed to, whether it be, giving you the discovery, like even the attorney calling you back, and just really communicating that with the client. There are certain things sometimes that we have to do, like hoops we have to jump through, and. Maybe it's not filing, like a motion, a forthwith motion with the court. Maybe it's asking for a status conference. So it's just making clients understand like what are the options and what really is going to get you the result that you're actually looking for.
Ryan Kalamaya:That brings us to my favorite topic, and that is that when lawyers are clients, I have represented a number of lawyers. A I have called many of them friends. And why Amy? Are lawyers the hardest clients? You were, you've both been a lawyer you are a lawyer and a client, so why are you just generally speaking a difficult client?
Amy Goscha:I think we lawyers are difficult clients because we know enough about the process. The problem is that we are mom, we are the wife, we are the husband, we are the dad. And so this. Is not in necessarily our analytical part of our brain. It's like our life as, like a, in a family. And so it's really hard. Those get very, mixed easily. And so I think it's hard sometimes for lawyers going through a Divorce to really think clearly and analytically about, I can do all of these things, but is that actually gonna get me the result that I need? So I think that. Lawyers are difficult clients because they want to drive the bus where they really need to let their lawyer drive the bus because they're not in the mental state to see, a thousand feet ahead instead of the two feet ahead.
Ryan Kalamaya:Yeah, there's a cardinal rule that you never represent yourself as a lawyer and but some lawyers, I'm not saying that you were one of these, I never represented you. But it was, it's one of those things where I. You know, lawyers will often be the backside, or backseat driver or the, sideline, quarterback, whatever. Pick your own metaphor there in the sense that they like know if they're litigators. They know about written discovery and they know about depositions, and so they'll say, this is how you should do it, whether they're a civil litigator or a water lawyer, or a real estate lawyer, whatever it is, and so they'll project, Hey, this is what I do, or This is what we do in this circumstance. And, it's difficult to be like, you're playing in my sandbox here Eric or Melanie and you've hired me and like we do things differently. And so that can be difficult. I also think lawyers, just as a general, I. Segment of the population. They tend to be alpha dogs or they like to win. There's like a winning attitude in there that kind of can really escalate in a Divorce. And so there are those dynamics that can be very challenging for a Divorce involving a lawyer.
Amy Goscha:Yeah, and I think since I am a Divorce attorney and I've been a Divorce client the more Divorce attorney attorneys that I've talked to that also have been a Divorce client I think one thing that's super challenging is that if you're, you have a reputation as a good Divorce attorney and you have an attorney, a lot of times the dynamic of the client management is hard because the lawyer is this lawyer has a good reputation. I'm gonna defer more to what he or she. A saying instead of driving the bus. So I think that can, cause like on the client or on the strategy piece to not just, defer to your client just because he or she is a lawyer, either
Ryan Kalamaya:well enough about lawyers or at least lawyers as clients. Amy, talk to me about managing expectations and managing hope.
Amy Goscha:Yeah, I think as lawyers, that's one of the biggest jobs that we have. I know that it can be very hard sometimes when new judges are coming and rotating in and out of various domestic, dockets. But I think just managing expectations when it comes to outcomes and really talking to clients about what is actually the court's perspective on this. This may be like a big deal to you. But the court is not necessarily going to see that, and the court might view you as being hyper controlling or, something like that. So I think just giving people expecta realistic expectations of outcomes, but also on the timeline, if you go through the court process, it can be super slow depending on the district, that you're in. So I think. Just having those conversations early on and continuing to have those conversations can help with client management and client expectation.
Ryan Kalamaya:Yeah. We talked about on this podcast several times that one of the most common, questions or comments that we get in initial con consultations is I want full custody. Or they, Melanie Wolf, she wants full custody and then it's disusing them of there is no such thing as full custody in Colorado. But then also when Amy. We talk in particular about chil children disputes how long it's going to take, but then also managing their expectations of saying, listen, we can go to court and a judge will listen, but. They, and they'll be the first ones to admit they are going to spend a fraction of the time, even though they, we have some wonderful judges across the state I was presenting, and they, I know that they really want to learn and do best, but the reality is that Eric and Melanie Wolf are gonna pay way more attention to the particularities of their children and their circumstances and are going to be able to come up with a schedule. Or whatever it may be relating to their kids, that is far better than anything a judge is going to do and having that reality check with Eric and Melanie, I. That is something that I think is challenging at first for sure. To say you're gonna have, you've had kids with them, you're gonna have to work with them. The flip side is that there are cases where they just fundamentally are just gonna disagree. They might disagree over decision making or they just might. Disagree on a parenting schedule, but I think I see you nodding and saying yes. You like, I, I think that the majority of people, they don't understand the limitations both from a time and how the quality or the detail that a judge is gonna give to their particular situation.
Amy Goscha:Yeah. I have time and time again, judges have told me that it's hard for them to get the nuance. That is needed in family law cases because of the time, it has nothing to do with like how much they care about family and kids. So yeah, it's yeah.
Ryan Kalamaya:Wrapping up with the final topic, and that's humanizing the process and reframing, key issues in terms of the impact on the kids. Amy, what should we think in terms of how how your child will experience this decision? What, what do would we make of that?
Amy Goscha:I think that because we have a system that is set up as an adversarial process where it's, we're. We're put into a system where, you know, civil cases, criminal cases, fam, family dynamics are so different than, like those types of cases. I think that a lot of times it's set up for each party to have their own lawyer. We're in this adversarial process and so it's easy, I think, for each side, each client to be like what's best for me? What's best for mom, what's best for dad? And I think if you can, as a lawyer, reframe it. And try to really focus your client on the kid. And what is the kid's experience, going to be, that can break a client out of that re entrenchment of like just thinking about themselves.
Ryan Kalamaya:Indeed. I think that, when you talk about the humanizing the process I think litigation is certainly legal in nature, but a lot of it is just emotional survival. And I don't think people realize how stressful. Just, disputes or trying to resolve those disputes through litigation. And the impact it has on the, on, on the kids. The research is overwhelmingly clear that yes, there may be some personality disorders and substance abuse and deficient parents out there, but the overwhelming. Number or the overwhelming statistics are that the two people together, creating disputes is the worst thing for the kids. It, it takes two to tango. It, there it is often a dynamic between two people and. I've said it before on this, on the, on, on this podcast, but when Eric and Melanie, when they come to the judge and they say, this person is, this other person's a lying, stealing, thief. The judge is gonna sit there and say you married them. And so that is really hard. For people to hear. But Amy, anything you wanna conclude with in any calls to action or other components to wrap for the wrap on this?
Amy Goscha:Yeah, I think just my kind of final thoughts on the humanizing the process. I think from the lawyer perspective, being able to, when I'm talking about reframing, saying I, I hear what you're saying. This is so frustrating. Taking the long view here, here are the options because I think then your client understands that you hear them, and they're more likely to be able to hear and understand and frankly make better decisions, based off of what you're saying. And I do think just after going through this process like the courts can only do so much. As a client and as a lawyer, you need to figure out how to be creative. And how you know when to let things go and when it's not okay to let things go. So I think there is an art to that as well.
Ryan Kalamaya:Indeed. Thank you everyone, all the listeners that have made it this far for joining us on Divorce at Altittude. We hope you've enjoyed this episode and if you have any questions or comments, we welcome our emails are publicly available. So we welcome the feedback. And until next time, thank you for joining us on Divorce Altittude. This is Ryan again. Thank you for joining us on Divorce at Altittude. If you found our tips, insight, or discussion helpful, please tell a friend about this podcast. For show notes, additional resources or links mentioned on today's episode, visit Divorce at Altittude dot com. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen in. Many of our episodes are also posted on YouTube. You can also find Amy and. Law or 9 7 0 3 1 5 2 3 6 5. That's K A L A M A Y A